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Lets not forget, in the song, Tommy was told be his father not to fight because it can get you in trouble. Do follow in his fathers footsteps and do not repeat the mistakes he made. Tommy took that to heart knowing there is no shame to walk away from a fight.



Have a gun put to your head with no chance of walking away, having a gun yourself can open up the opportunity to be the one walking away.



It is not about having the chance to walk around in the ghetto asking for trouble. It is about living your life the way you always do, except you have an extra margin of safety incase you find yourself in a bad situation.



Fighting does not make you a man. Protecting and providing for your family does.



That is a true man.





Tom
 
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Fighting does not make you a man. Protecting and providing for your family does.



That is a true man.



So true Tom. However, wouldn't it be easier to protect a family in a safer environment? There is nothing negative about a person making an informed decision to move his family to a safer place.



It is impossible for one to protect his family against a neighborhood that has 100 or more armed thugs. As you've stated, your city police cannot even make the place you live safe, so how will buying a gun make you any safer?



I understand moving does not change the situation in your parents' neighborhood. It is their choice to remain there, and there are good reasons for you to risk going to visit them. However, I would make a point to visit during safer daylight hours.



If you do buy a gun, be careful. Sometimes carrying a gun can attract its own trouble. Also, if you decide to pull that weapon out, make sure you are quick to use it, because if you are threatened by an armed person, even if he had no real plan to shoot anyone, he will certainly use that weapon against you once you pull your own out.
 
However, I would make a point to visit during safer daylight hours.



Sometimes that is not an option. Any moron with a lick of sense would know that.



Give me more credit than that. I know the ieda of me being a Union Boilermaker that labors hard for a living should mean I am dumb. Unfortunatly that could not be further from the truth.



I want assistance on what guns members here recommend and stuff like that.



I do not need a lecture from two guys that try to be a daddy fixture. I am 34 years old for crying out loud. I have traveled the USA with all kinds of dangerous goods (radioactive for example) climbing up and down towers hundreds of feet. I have overseen million dollar jobs without have the stupid shit you and TJR tell me. I could honestly give a shit less about you two.



Give it a break. I have a father. I do not need two more imaginary ones...or ones that think they are. Give it up and drop it.





Tom
 
Caymen said:
The best answer is to avoid putting yourself in that situation, but as usual, TJR only sees it from one side...his side.



Avoiding the situation if able which you now say is "the best answer" was my point and I guess therefore my "side".



Glad you came around, Tom. ;)



TJR
 
Caymen also said:
I could honestly give a shit less about you two.



If you are going to try to insult me, at least get it right.



When saying that type of phrase you want to say "COULDN'T" not "COULD!"



Think about it. The ultimate insult is:



I couldn't care less.



or, as you say it:



I couldn't give a shit less.



To say that you COULD give a shit less, or COULD care less leaves more room for apathy. If you want to insult someone then instead you should communicate the utmost in apathy and contempt by using the word COULDN'T.



My 5th grade teacher taught me that when she heard a classmate say "I could care less!"



Think about it.



But hey, that's all I ever ask anyone to do here. Open their mind. Think about it. Seems when I do, I get attacked. Those mental gymnastics must hurt.



Oh, and JDB, I didn't say preparing for the worst was a bad thing. It's admirable. Putting onesself in harms way, deliberately, when they don't have to can be.



I really don't have a major issue with Caymen. It wasn't until he quoted that he was worried about his wife's protection when he wasn't there that I suggested maybe he move. He then returned that comment with insults rather than a constructive dialogue.



The moment I was worried about my wife's protection during times I wasn't around would be the moment I would move for my own piece of mind and more important for her protection. It's one thing for me to carry a gun, and be prepared to use it to defend myself and my family, and deal with the consequences. It is quite another to expect her to do the same in my absence. Sure, random things can happen, but the moment I start to worry about that scenario as likely especially for my wife alone is the moment I move a little further out of the 'hood.



TJR
 
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Caymen, please read!



I intended you no disrespect above.



As I have said several times, I hope it works out for you.



I hope you figure out to how reduce the liklilhood that you and/or your wife are a victim of a violent crime and can maintain or increase your quality of life and sense of peace in the process. If you think a gun will get you that then good luck. It sounds like you will need guns for both of you, though.



As I said, good luck.



TJR
 
The Secret Service couldn't prevent Reagan and Brady from being shot, but perhaps I underestimate the folks here. Sorry for my false assumptions.



It's a free country and folks have a right to bear arms. Have at it. Let the bullets fly. My daughter and I are far out of your range if you miss your intended target. ;)
 
NelsonOKC said

The Secret Service couldn't prevent Reagan and Brady from being shot, but perhaps I underestimate the folks here. Sorry for my false assumptions.



Why bother to try, there are two examples of people getting shot.. why give soldiers training.. whats the point?? LEVEL THE PLAYING GROUND, just because you carry doesn't mean you won't get shot or hurt or attacked, it just means you stand a chance to defend yourself in that lethal situation.
 
The Secret Service couldn't prevent Reagan and Brady from being shot, but perhaps I underestimate the folks here. Sorry for my false assumptions.

That just goes to show you that even carrying a handgun will not protect you in every situation. No one should even begin to think because they carry a gun that they are completely safe. Hell, cops get shot all the time. Still it's better then nothing.
 
My 5th grade teacher taught me that when she heard a classmate say "I could care less!"



This is what we call regional language differences. You knew what I was trying to say. Don't give a crap.



I really don't have a major issue with Caymen. It wasn't until he quoted that he was worried about his wife's protection when he wasn't there that I suggested maybe he move. He then returned that comment with insults rather than a constructive dialogue



My wifes makes a living buying stuff locally and selling it on eBay. Some of the stores she shops are in some bad area's and others in areas that are in good area's that can attract bad people.



Even the best neighborhood has crime. Crooks know that people that live in the ghetto do not have money. That is why they live in the ghetto. Those that shop in the ghetto do have money, that is why they are shopping in the ghetto. Those that shop in nice area's have money. That attracts scumbags.



It is easy to say "just move". I should not have to move like a sissy to segregate myself. I will live my life where I choose to live.



My wife grew up 40 miles from where I live. White rural town. Cops do their best to keep the wrong people out.



Thier house has been broken into a few times in the past 50 years. My parents home is in the ghetto. Thier house has NEVER been broken into since Dad got it in the early 60's.



Sure, random things can happen, but the moment I start to worry about that scenario as likely especially for my wife alone is the moment I move a little further out of the 'hood.



Check the statistics. Rape, Murder, Crime can happen at nice shopping malls as well as those that are not so nice.



At a mall in NE Ohio in one of those white suburbs with houses in excess of 200,000 homes had a woman raped over and over again while her kids were waiting for her to pick them up. When those scumbags were done with her, they killed her. There was 6 different specimans of semen on and in her.



Moving into a nice place really helped that woman.



Moving is not always the best thing to do.





Tom
 
Caymen said:
This is what we call regional language differences.



No it isn't. Could and Couldn't don't have different meanings in different parts of the country. People say that saying incorrectly in many parts of the country. Now that you have been educated you will hear it when it is wrong and probably say it correctly. I do know what you meant, however.



Caymen says:
It is easy to say "just move". I should not have to move like a sissy to segregate myself



There you go again with the derogatory names.



Yes, it is easy to say, but no it is NOT easy to do. That’s what is probably keeping you there; the emotional tie to the community; the memories; family; job, friends, etc. But sometime moving is the right thing to do. Please don't assume I don't get that.



I never said that moving will remove all liklihood of being a victim of a violent crime. I clearly understand that too.



But I think it was you that claimed you were trying to take back your neighborhood ("not going to allow others to destroy it"). It was you that claimed you wanted your wife to be safe when you were not around. I still haven't heard any real discussion on how you would do that. Moving can get you in a better neighborhood and make her safer when you are not around. You touting a gun and staying put can't.



Since you have been unwilling to get past your emotion to talk about what it takes to move, or what it would take to make your situation better without moving, so let me start.



From what I know about certain parts of Ohio is that they are very economically depressed. Like many other parts of the country, manufacturing jobs left; companies left the bigger cities, and those areas have reverted over the last twenty or thirty years into low and lower-middle income areas, with the associated crime that desperation and poverty create (not an excuse but our modern-day reality).



Sometimes moving is the only immediate way out of that situation. It tends to get you better schools, a better quality of life, more opportunities, less crime, etc.



But, if that is the situation that you are in, generally, and if you really want to “take back” your neighborhood, then a submit that a gun won’t give you those things. Revitalization will, but even that won't happen immediately. These neighborhoods took decades to get where they are. A single, additional gun won't make them safer overnight (yes, I get that a gun is about increasing your odds of coming out on top of an altercation; but the liklihood of the altercation hasn't been reduced).



If you want to talk about revitalization; neighborhood watch; urban renewal; and other ideas about truly taking back a neighborhood, then let's talk. If you think that another gun will revitalize a neighborhood and stem the tide of violence that is already underway, then let's talk about that (clearly I don't believe that, but I would be interested in your thoughts on the matter).



Again, good luck...



TJR
 
Thanks for the education daddy.



You speak to me like I am an idiot and do not understand how things work.



Again, you talk to me like I am a child and I do not know how things operate. You treat me the same as I treat you. You just do it more politically correct.



I could care about PC'ness. I say it how it is and if it offends...oh well.



I COULD CARE LESS.





Tom
 
Caymen, I translate your last post as you not wanting to steer this into a constructive discussion about how you could make your neighborhood better; or towards an introspective discussion on whether or not a gun will truly solve the problems you and your community are facing. It seems that I have tried to spur those topics several times, but you just return to insults.



Somehow my encouraging you to have such discussions is seen as being a parent. Quite the contrary. I'm not trying to be a parent, but instead discuss things as an adult, with an adult. Somehow you take my correcting of an inappropriately said but common INSULT as the same; me being a parent. Nope. That's just me correcting a pet peeve of mine. Another one is when people say: "irregardless". You can claim these regional differences in dialect, but frankly, wrong is wrong; and when someone insults me, they should at least get it right.



If you want to have the constructive discussions without the emotion, then let's have at it.



Frankly, I DO CARE.



TJR
 
Rich Stern,



With all the admonishing you did in your last post, I can't help but soapbox a little myself.



I agree with much of what you said, but I also have to say that it is further evidence of the dysfunctional society we live in when we cannot, or should I say, we are unwilling to talk about what it really takes to clean up a community; or to talk about if one additional gun can really make a difference in overall QOL (quality of life) when living in a bad neighborhood.



Some of the neighborhoods we are talking about simply have people, for the most part, don't trust the police and won't work with them to clean up their streets. I see that in spades in Philadelphia. Furthermore, the police, the chief and the mayor aren't totally blameless. As long as the minorities are killing each other there isn't really a big problem; but when they kill a cop, or when they start to go out to the 'burbs, then there is a crackdown. By our actions; the actions of our citizenry and our leaders, we have shown that we have given up on several of these cities and communities decades ago. Many have literally become warzones.



That will NOT change overnight, not with one more gun.



It doesn't make one a coward or a sissy to recognize that. If living in that type of environment one man, taking a stand with yet another gun won't solve anything. Yes, you can take comfort in saying that "I took my stand", but for what purpose?



Frankly, I am a realist. I don't think that there are enough good people left in many of these communities to make a stand (armed or not) to turn them around.



Go ahead folks...call me names.



TJR
 
Caymen, I translate your last post as you not wanting to steer this into a constructive discussion about how you could make your neighborhood better; or towards an introspective discussion on whether or not a gun will truly solve the problems you and your community are facing. It seems that I have tried to spur those topics several times, but you just return to insults.



I did not ask about how to steer my community into a nicer place to live. I really do not need your help on how to do it. I know all about a community watch program (doesn't work), activities to help curtail gang violence (give a place for a gang to recruit members), and anything else you can think if.



This post was about protecting number 1 (my family) against scumbags where ever they might be. In the ghetto as well as Sellersville, PA, Miami, FL, Columbia, SC., or anywhere else.



This is not "neighborhood renewal by TJR 101".



This is not about walking through town brandishing a weapon saying come try to get me boys. This is about me being able to level the playing field if I am ever in a situation where I may be approached by someone wanting my wallet while holding a gun pointed at me or my wife. This is about my wife being able to make one more stop while she is out doing her stuff before it gets dark. This is about being prepared if I am on vacation and need to get gas while in a part of town that I did not realize was as bad as it really is.



This is not about cleaning up my neighborhood. My neighborhood is clean. My city has bad parts, like all cities. There are parts of NYC that are very nice. There are others I would not even visit. Does that mean all of NYC is good or bad? Nope. Does that mean that if I live in a good part of NYC that I must either start a Urban renewal or run for the hills?



Does that make me a vigilante to buy a gun...legally? Does that make me a vigilante to obtain a CCW permit...legally? Does that mean I am living in a bad place if I do those things? Does it make a vigilante by exercising my RIGHT to own a gun. That is correct, owning a gun is a RIGHT!



It seems that I have tried to spur those topics several times, but you just return to insults.



Maybe I do not care about what you are trying to discuss. This is not about you.



I have had some healthy information here. I have an idea what I want as a gun. Eltee has made some good points about a revolver and I really like the revolver LaRue recommended. I also like the KelTech 380 Mud posted. Both are exactly what I like, wanted, and willing to spend. That is the what I wanted to know.



Walking into a gun store can be very intimidating. Looking at those big brands like Colt, S&W, and Glock really get you to think. Are those guns that good or are you paying for a name? Do they shoot that much better or are they that feel so much better to operate.



Is it really worth spending $900.00 for a Glock or will spending less than $400.00 on a KelTech do the same thing.



So, I will put this in plain english for you, TJR....



<font size=+4>I do not want to know about urban renewal or about how I should move. This is about handguns. Please contribute about your thoughts and recommendations about a handgun, or stifle it.</font>





Tom
 
Gotcha, Caymen. Good luck. I did give you some gun advice. I just tried to take the conversation in another direction when you veered off-course.



So, in the future, you might not want to bring up how you want to make things safer for your wife when you aren't around, or how you want to keep those from destroying your neighborhood if that's really not what you want to discuss, nor the reason for buying a gun. I didn't start either of those, you did.



You've said several irrational, non-sensical things in your last post, but I'm going to let them go.



Good luck.



TJR
 
Most of these neighborhoods will have to WANT to be cleaned up, and they are going to have to do the work themselves.



Relying on the government as the solution to everything is not the answer. Folks have to take care of themselves if they want the job done right. That is why so many folks are considering conceal and carry. They are fed up with the government's failure to clean up crime and protect its citizenry, so they are going to have to do it themselves. Also, that is one of the principals that our country was founded on: a well-armed citizenry who can protect themselves from evil, INCLUDING the government.



 
Gavin,



I agree. The government isn't going to solve problems like this. No one is, until a good sized percentage of the local population admit there is a problem and help with the problem.



That's why I said that "one more gun", IMHO, wasn't going to clean up a neighborhood and make it safer, better. 10s of thousands more, might.



TJR
 
That's why I said that "one more gun", IMHO, wasn't going to clean up a neighborhood and make it safer, better. 10s of thousands more, might.



Those guns are added one at a time, 10's of thousands of times.





Tom
 

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