SICKO: Movie

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I don't care what God you pray to, there isn't one that would be OK with letting immigrants or poor people burn, bleed to death or otherwise expire from neglect simply because they couldn't pay for rescuers.

I agree--but I also know that there isn't a god that would be OK with letting people (immigrants or otherwise) call 911 and have the fire department come, just because they need the batteries changed on their smoke detectors. It's misuse of emergency services. And that's effectively what is happening when people use ER services as a replacement for standard clinic/doctor services.
 
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Adam S. clearly didn't read the text he quoted....



The quoted passage wasn't about monetary worth being life's worth. It was about a system meant to deal with serious injuries being clogged by treatments of head colds.



On the contrary, I got the true message of quoted text loud and clear. That is to say, I saw the intent and motivation of the complaint through the literal wording. I know how emergency rooms triage people and prioritize severity of injuries. Don't be fooled into thinking this guy was standing in line behind snotty-nosed kids having just amputated his arm in a chop saw. No, what he's really compaining about is the immigrants being there AT ALL, and how they can't be turned away for lack of insurance. He was exaggerating the severity discrepancy part to try and sneak in his real beef in under its cloak. I'm not so obviously hoodwinked.



Dingo may have a legitimate complaint to the hospital if there are kids in the ER getting treatment for minor colds ahead of his allegedly serious (yet unspecified) injury, whether they were insured or not, citizens or not, etc.. but I don't for one second believe that's what he was actually ranting about--his specific singling out of "illegal immigrants" says it all.
 
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I had to go to the hospital a few years back and yes with insurance coverage. Today Iam still paying off that debt for my 7 days in the hospital. Thousands of $$ worth of bills. Face it our health care insurance sucks. The insurance puts limits on what they will pay for for hospital stays. Not a big fan on illegal immigrant coverage too. We all pay for them having thier babies here for free.

Cant wait to see the movie.
 
You have to be pretty high on your horse to openly state that your life is more important than someone else's (or their kids') simply because you have a good job that pays your health insurance premium.



That's NOT what I said. That's what you heard.

One of the occaisions, my finger was nearly severed. I had to sit for 3 hours when all I needed was some stitches. Not a big deal. My life wasn't in danger. But I had to sit for 3 hours, bleeding profusely the entire time, while a Mexican woman had brought all FIVE of her kids in for immunizations before the school year. Keep in mind that I'm paying for those immunizations (Healthcare is so expensive because of write-offs like this, and because of ambulance chaser malpractice attorneys). I'm also paying for their schooling (taxes, which I don't mind, because I think everyone should have an education.) My frustration is that their lack of planning causes people with legitimate treatment needs not to be seen in a timely manor. If I don't have insurance, I'll find a part time job to pay for immunizations, etc.



The American healthcare system is indeed flawed, but so is every other country's. North Korea has the same healthcare system structure as Canada. North Korea also has almost no equipment nor qualified practitioners to treat the ill. They even have a cataract rate that's over 30 times higher than America.



 
No, what he's really compaining about is the immigrants being there AT ALL, and how they can't be turned away for lack of insurance.

Sorry, no, that's not what the message said. You're just reading your own bias into it. Insurance or no insurance had nothing to do with what he said--re-read it. The complaint is that they're not allowed to turn people away regardless of the type of injury/illness.
 
Some articles about Canadian health care. Again, let me say, that I do not know where the truth lies. The authors of these each have an agenda; just as does Mr. Moore.



http://www.mises.org/story/496



http://www.cbc.ca/healthcare/



http://www.cmwf.org/usr_doc/canada52003_db_641.pdf



http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/



http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/hl856.cfm



http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/wm782.cfm



http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/pdf/romanow/pdfs/Dr.%20S.%20Basnyat.pdf



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2001977834_cihak13.html



http://www.bestsyndication.com/2005/A-H/davis_dave/110105_canadian_health_care.htm

 
Oh, by the way, illegal immigrants were singled out because there is a high concentration of them in my area and they're who is most commonly clogging up the hospital system with crap. Substitute any person of any race/religion/ethnicity/creed, in order to suit your agenda, but the issue was the wasting of "emergency" resources on non-emergency needs.
 
I agree--but I also know that there isn't a god that would be OK with letting people (immigrants or otherwise) call 911 and have the fire department come, just because they need the batteries changed on their smoke detectors. It's misuse of emergency services. And that's effectively what is happening when people use ER services as a replacement for standard clinic/doctor services.



No, this attempt at analogy is grossly misleading, those situations are not at all analogous. Outside of normal hospital hours, the Emergency Room is usually the only entry point to a hospital for ALL conditions. Going into the ER with a cold is not a misuse of the service, because you will be sent to a nurse (called a triage nurse) whose sole job is to rate the severity of your illness and prioritize appropriately. For example, if the hospital is properly run, sick kids get shoved aside when car accident vicitms come in. People who spend hours waiting for treatment do so because their injury has been deemed non-life-threatening.



If you call 911 to have your smoke detector batteries change, you will appropriately end up fined or arrested, the fire department will NOT come and happily change them for you, ignoring a house fire. An argument like this (based on a false and deliberately inflammatory premise) is called a "straw man".
 
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The complaint is that they're not allowed to turn people away regardless of the type of injury/illness.



That's because without treating the person, they often can not discern what the illness is. To the average mom, a harmless cold can have the same symptoms as a life-threatening meningitis. Parents make the effort to go to the E.R. when they are genuinely concerned about the wellbeing of people in their family, not for every scraped knee, hangnail, etc. But that's sort of beside the point. I'm challenging the poster's complaint that his serious need for emergency medical care got delayed for hours because of a horde of kids with colds. I'm sorry, but I suspect that is an exaggeration or misjudging of the situation on his part.



And I don't buy the excuse that he simply lives in a neighborhood of all illegal immigrants as reason for singling them out. There was no need to mention that to make the supposedly-intended point, except to express contempt for that specific group of people. You would have just said "kids with colds" if you wished to put the focus on the severity of illness issue rather than citizenship status.
 
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Wow...I see some things will never change.



It seems we will always have those that we call the "haves", that by sheer luck of being born into the families that they were and a combination of the "hard work" and choices they have made are doing well in life.



Many of these "haves" don't want anyone to get anything off of the sweat of their brow. To them, good fortune, prosperity and their standard of living are all "scarce commodities" that if somehow shared would require that they have less.



It's as if a few pennies in taxes a week that subsidises a "have-not" would allow that "have-not" to "live the good life" while simultaneously erroding all that is good in the "haves" life.



"Scarcity principle"...look it up...it's a destructive belief system.



TJR
 
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I find it totally rediculous that people are defending the US Health Care System as well. I guess it's working (The Brainwashing)



The bottom line is there should be no limitations on helping the sick. We as citizens of our own countries work to make this country what it is. The Americans in this instance obviously dont mind whats happening down there because they do nothing to make thier standard of living better. You as a nation need to come together and fix it.



As you will see in Michael Moore's movie most countries are a group of citizens protecting thier quality of life and standard of living. Where in the US it seems as that its every man for themselves and if you cant somehow be a doctor or someone making a lot of money you are nothing. It's sad.



Lets all not forget that we need people working lower income jobs, such as convenient stores, McDonalds, Walmart, Best Buy, Etc.. Where would all your rich people with private doctors buy all your stuff? Maybe you rich people are so rich and honest that they would just let you walk out of the store with a simple IOU? Lower income families are just as valuable as the wealthy.



If you think your health care system is ok, wait till you get sick.



Another thing. This has nothing to do, on my part, of 'Canada is better than the US'. My entire purpose of this thread was to show compasion for the people of the US that go through this system with nothing but troubles and the children and families that lose relatives due to the system. I have nothing to gain or prove, where I live I've not paid a cent for medical attention, ever.

 
The trouble with the U.S. right now is that the "haves" are just not content with all they have, often because of extremist religious beliefs in what is/isn't right, wrong, moral. So what we have are "haves" who make it their business to piss on the "have nots", as if they aren't bad enough off already. God forbid the poor and hungry get to eat some crap canned food at thanksgiving or a flu shot because of their tax dollar (or tax cent as is probably more accurate). No sir, the U.S. has got a huge entitled bunch of white, right-wing "haves" who can't simply live and let live, enjoying all the privilege fate/god handed them, so long as they know that somewhere out there a gay couple is getting married, or a woman is having an abortion, or an immigrant is getting a handout... I feel kind of sorry for the people who don't get to enjoy their relatively short lives because of all their needless hatred for everyone who has less than they do.
 
As some of you know my wife has Cardiovascular disease with a blood clot in her leg. She needs to have her glood thinning medication perscription renewed and the current doctor we have is not responding to the request. The HMO's have got to stop controlling who gets taken care of, and who doesn't. Yes, we are going to find a new doctor who will take care of us. So, in my opinion, in general, the movie SICKO is not too far off the mark. As long a Big Pharma makes a profit our so called health care in the U.S. is a joke. When one of the leading causes of death in this country is conflicting perscription drugs, Houston we have a problem.



What we need to do is put in place what Japan and other Asain countries are doing; that is focus on Wellness Care where doctors do not get paid it you get sick.
 
Adam S.--First of all, my analogy was not off or misleading. Your concept of how ER triage system work is, from my observation, signinificantly off. This opinion o mine is based, in part, on my two experiences in the last three months in Urgent Care (granted, it's not an ER, but the same sort of triage principals should have applied). Each time, I was in on a Saturday morning, with a kid who had developed a sickness during the night, which I suspected would require prescription medication to treat. Their regular doctor's office was closed--one time until Monday, and one time until Tuesday (because of a holiday). I wanted to start the treatment sooner, so I went to urgent care. Both times, a point was reached where we were the only patient in the waiting room. And each time, another patient came in with medical needs far greater than my child's--one had lopped off a finger on a table saw, the other was experiencing chest pains. And BOTH times, the doctors/nurses attempted to see my child first. Each time, I actually had to INSIST on waiting longer, just so the more urgent need could be addressed--but they had to violate their standard triaging practices to do this! If I hadn't spoken up to let a little logic take control, these other patients would have needed to wait until my kids' illnesses (one was strep, and one was the start of influenza) were diagnosed and treated!



Also, your use of the "strawman" concept is flawed. A strawman is not based on a false or deliberately inflammatory premise. It is a crude plan, meant to be refined into or replaced by something more substantial--but it is written as a theoretical proposal to see if its basic premise holds enough weight to support something more. It may turn out to be based on a false premise, but that is not known at the time, which is why it is being proposed for further testing and critiquing. More often than not, the people proposing a strawman concept know enough about the subject matter covered that their proposals are found to be at least partly, if not fully, legitimate. And because of this critiquing/evolving process, they're never deliberately inflammatory--such action would only guarantee their failure. See the link below.
 
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Mud--Agreed. Even if you say that the medical system in Canada is better than ours, that makes only three things about Canada that are better than the US:



1) Medical system

2) $1 and $2 coins in common usage

3) Far superior national anthem



Other than those: USA! USA! USA! :)
 
Roger,



In France (according to the documentary SICKO) thats how things work as well. The more people they help to quit smoking, lower thier blood pressure, etc the doctors are rewarded with bonuses. I thought that was really good.



I wish for a second people could see that Michael Moore is trying to help his country.



 

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