Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I appologize for the name-calling.
OT: Standing Up For What's Right - Against Circuit City and the local Police
- Thread starter Thomas Rogers
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Rick Kent
Well-Known Member
No problem, I just don't like being compared to a sheep, giraffes are cute though.
FKent,
Many years back, my sister went to Circuit City to buy a mini disk player/recorder. To make a long story short, the player in the box was not the one supposed to be in the box. Someone put their old broken one in the new ones box and returned it. When she went back to complain about it, they told her she was stuck with it. She called the cops and went inside.
Cops showed, she explained the situation to the officer. He spoke to the manager and told her to leave since he was siding with the store and if she did not leave, he would arrest her.
She did get it resolved through the CC company, but that is not the point.
She called the Police. She spoke to the Officer about the situation. She was called a liar.
How do we not know this situation is any different?
He called the cops. He waited for the cops. He spoke to the cops. The cop got shitty with him.
Tom
Many years back, my sister went to Circuit City to buy a mini disk player/recorder. To make a long story short, the player in the box was not the one supposed to be in the box. Someone put their old broken one in the new ones box and returned it. When she went back to complain about it, they told her she was stuck with it. She called the cops and went inside.
Cops showed, she explained the situation to the officer. He spoke to the manager and told her to leave since he was siding with the store and if she did not leave, he would arrest her.
She did get it resolved through the CC company, but that is not the point.
She called the Police. She spoke to the Officer about the situation. She was called a liar.
How do we not know this situation is any different?
He called the cops. He waited for the cops. He spoke to the cops. The cop got shitty with him.
Tom
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Re: What the cop did--I agree that he was wrong in insisting on seeing ID.
Re: What CC did--I agree that they were wrong to detain this person and his father and family.
Re: What this person did to the cop (refusing to display ID)--He was definitely within his right to do so.
Re: What this person did at CC (refusing to show a receipt while--I presume--still within their four walls)--My opinion (and I have no idea if this has any legal legs, it's just my sense of right-and-wrong) is that when you enter a store's property, you are agreeing to abide by their rules, within reason, and you have waved a certain amount of your rights in exchange for the right to enter their building. For example, you agree to be subject to their video surveillance. Another is that you agree to allow them to take reasonable action to prevent theft--including review of receipts and inspection of departing packages. If you don't want to grant them the right to do this--don't enter the store. If you feel like they are treating you as a crook when they do this--don't enter the store.
Re: What this person did to his family (he mentioned that his siblings were in the car crying, I took it to mean that they were relatively young)--What an ass. If he wants to prevent a reasonable search by the store, and make a scene in doing so, do it on your own time and on your own dime--don't do it when it will put your young siblings through that kind of emotional wringer, and don't make your daddy pay bail money to get you out. I agree with those of you who say that his dad should have the right to press charges against CC--but I also feel that dad was an idiot for bailing this guy out. He chose to put himself in this situation, let him get himself out of it. In his blog, he says that, "I understand that my day would have gone a lot smoother if I had agreed to let loss prevention inspect my bag. I understand that my day would have gone a lot smoother if I had agreed to hand over my driver’s license when asked by Officer Arroyo. However, I am not interested in living my life smoothly. I am interested in living my life on strong principles and standing up for my rights as a consumer, a U.S. citizen and a human being." That's fine and dandy--but did he ever ask his father or his siblings if they're interested in living THEIR lives smoothly, before intentionally dragging them into his personal pissing match with "the man"?
Re: What CC did--I agree that they were wrong to detain this person and his father and family.
Re: What this person did to the cop (refusing to display ID)--He was definitely within his right to do so.
Re: What this person did at CC (refusing to show a receipt while--I presume--still within their four walls)--My opinion (and I have no idea if this has any legal legs, it's just my sense of right-and-wrong) is that when you enter a store's property, you are agreeing to abide by their rules, within reason, and you have waved a certain amount of your rights in exchange for the right to enter their building. For example, you agree to be subject to their video surveillance. Another is that you agree to allow them to take reasonable action to prevent theft--including review of receipts and inspection of departing packages. If you don't want to grant them the right to do this--don't enter the store. If you feel like they are treating you as a crook when they do this--don't enter the store.
Re: What this person did to his family (he mentioned that his siblings were in the car crying, I took it to mean that they were relatively young)--What an ass. If he wants to prevent a reasonable search by the store, and make a scene in doing so, do it on your own time and on your own dime--don't do it when it will put your young siblings through that kind of emotional wringer, and don't make your daddy pay bail money to get you out. I agree with those of you who say that his dad should have the right to press charges against CC--but I also feel that dad was an idiot for bailing this guy out. He chose to put himself in this situation, let him get himself out of it. In his blog, he says that, "I understand that my day would have gone a lot smoother if I had agreed to let loss prevention inspect my bag. I understand that my day would have gone a lot smoother if I had agreed to hand over my driver’s license when asked by Officer Arroyo. However, I am not interested in living my life smoothly. I am interested in living my life on strong principles and standing up for my rights as a consumer, a U.S. citizen and a human being." That's fine and dandy--but did he ever ask his father or his siblings if they're interested in living THEIR lives smoothly, before intentionally dragging them into his personal pissing match with "the man"?
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Rich Stern
Well-Known Member
fkent, while you are correct that we only have his version, he has gone out of his way to provide references on who he is (previously published articles about his professional work), as well as the citation number, the names and badge numbers of the officer and supervisor, the location where the event took place. Everything that happens within the legal system will be a matter of public record. His reputation will be on the line when the public gains access to whatever materials are generated from this case, including his testimony, and that of witnesses for or against him.
That's good enough for me.
Also, because he works in a field I understand, I know a bit about the tendencies of people doing the kind of work he does. He's what is known as a "white hat" hacker, meaning he uses his knowledge of computer system security and vulnerabilities to help people and organizations safeguard their information and assets against bad guy hackers. People like Righi tend to have a very well developed sense of respect for property and privacy. Reading his blog, my gut tells me his personality matches that of others working in his field, and it fits perfectly with the mindset of someone who refuses to be abused by arbitrary use of power.
That's good enough for me.
Also, because he works in a field I understand, I know a bit about the tendencies of people doing the kind of work he does. He's what is known as a "white hat" hacker, meaning he uses his knowledge of computer system security and vulnerabilities to help people and organizations safeguard their information and assets against bad guy hackers. People like Righi tend to have a very well developed sense of respect for property and privacy. Reading his blog, my gut tells me his personality matches that of others working in his field, and it fits perfectly with the mindset of someone who refuses to be abused by arbitrary use of power.
WXMotorSports DecalsPartsAccs
Well-Known Member
I've had three issues with the local police.
1. My first car at 16 someone keyed it. My parents were out-of town and I called them to find out what to do. They said make a police report just to have it on for the insurance company. The Sheriff that came out called me a liar and said I DID IT! Total BS!
2. Just a few years back the Police wouldn't show up to our house because they said I called the wrong police station! My house is a block from the city line and they told me to call them. What a joke when I told them my address and they didn't believe me it was the correct city.
3. They were using my friends driveway to park their patrol cars so they could run radar. We told them to please leave as they were blocking the driveway and private property. They gave us the BS line that we should help them because people are always speeding down this road and we would be giving back to the community. They moved up the street but they always make sure we are doing the speed limit. We just rev the engines up to piss them off.
Now on the other flip side...I've donated several hundreds of dollars of vinyl graphics to small rural police departments around the country and didn't think twice about it.
1. My first car at 16 someone keyed it. My parents were out-of town and I called them to find out what to do. They said make a police report just to have it on for the insurance company. The Sheriff that came out called me a liar and said I DID IT! Total BS!
2. Just a few years back the Police wouldn't show up to our house because they said I called the wrong police station! My house is a block from the city line and they told me to call them. What a joke when I told them my address and they didn't believe me it was the correct city.
3. They were using my friends driveway to park their patrol cars so they could run radar. We told them to please leave as they were blocking the driveway and private property. They gave us the BS line that we should help them because people are always speeding down this road and we would be giving back to the community. They moved up the street but they always make sure we are doing the speed limit. We just rev the engines up to piss them off.
Now on the other flip side...I've donated several hundreds of dollars of vinyl graphics to small rural police departments around the country and didn't think twice about it.
Fudged Undies
Well-Known Member
I'll play devils advocate....
Some of these stores have posted signs that state "checking bags" is there policy and what not. It is often annoying, especially when there is a line, but I have also seen them catch mistakes, that the cashier made. Yeah, it's the cahiers fault but the store is protecting themselves, at a minimum, from having to raise prices due to loss. I completely understand the points about our rights but if you refuse to follow the stores policy, I believe stores have the right to refuse to do business with you.
Perhaps if the general public were more responsible and didn't eat grapes while they walked around whatever grocery store they are shopping in (like it or not this costs money), or drank a soda from the cooler and then "forgetting" to pay for it, both can be read as stealing. Not to mention that other customers turn a blind eye to these happenings and sometimes employees do similar, I have experienced this. I agree with protecting our rights but what can the stores do to protect themselves? The headache this guy has caused himself is silly, and I hardly see a store checking a receipt as being oppressive. Shoplifting is common in these places and I'm sure that's a big part of why they have adopted these policies.
Inconvenient? Yes. Oppressive? I don't think so.
You can always shop somewhere where they don't have this type of policy.
Some of these stores have posted signs that state "checking bags" is there policy and what not. It is often annoying, especially when there is a line, but I have also seen them catch mistakes, that the cashier made. Yeah, it's the cahiers fault but the store is protecting themselves, at a minimum, from having to raise prices due to loss. I completely understand the points about our rights but if you refuse to follow the stores policy, I believe stores have the right to refuse to do business with you.
Perhaps if the general public were more responsible and didn't eat grapes while they walked around whatever grocery store they are shopping in (like it or not this costs money), or drank a soda from the cooler and then "forgetting" to pay for it, both can be read as stealing. Not to mention that other customers turn a blind eye to these happenings and sometimes employees do similar, I have experienced this. I agree with protecting our rights but what can the stores do to protect themselves? The headache this guy has caused himself is silly, and I hardly see a store checking a receipt as being oppressive. Shoplifting is common in these places and I'm sure that's a big part of why they have adopted these policies.
Inconvenient? Yes. Oppressive? I don't think so.
You can always shop somewhere where they don't have this type of policy.
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V,
Great comments. I agree with them all.
Though he was within his rights, I tend to think this guy really made an arse of himself and majorly inconvenienced his family...when all he had to do to avoid the whole thing was agree to the search/receipt check. That does happen all the time in stores.
I suspect a store can ASK you for anything while within their establishment; but I don't think they can FORCE you to do anything if they don't have some probable cause.
Still, assuming this guys motives are pure, I commend him for fighting the good fight.
TJR
Great comments. I agree with them all.
Though he was within his rights, I tend to think this guy really made an arse of himself and majorly inconvenienced his family...when all he had to do to avoid the whole thing was agree to the search/receipt check. That does happen all the time in stores.
I suspect a store can ASK you for anything while within their establishment; but I don't think they can FORCE you to do anything if they don't have some probable cause.
Still, assuming this guys motives are pure, I commend him for fighting the good fight.
TJR
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Rich Stern
Well-Known Member
Bill, once you hand over the money and take possession of the goods, they are yours. What's in your shopping bag is for your eyes only, if you so choose. You don't enter into a contract when you walk into a typical retail store like Circuit City. They cannot make demands of you in regard to your property.
They can tell you not to tresspass, if they choose not to welcome you.
As for the impact on his family, that's a very personal decision. He's doing a great service to society by standing up for his civil rights, at considerable risk to his own happiness. Only he can decide if the cost to his family for his actions is worthwhile. The judgement of the rest of us on that issue is moot.
They can tell you not to tresspass, if they choose not to welcome you.
As for the impact on his family, that's a very personal decision. He's doing a great service to society by standing up for his civil rights, at considerable risk to his own happiness. Only he can decide if the cost to his family for his actions is worthwhile. The judgement of the rest of us on that issue is moot.
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
Bill, you are right, IF they accuse him of stealing. Checking just to be checking without probable cause is an illegal search, and I have to say, if someone tried to search me, I doubt I'd be as cooperative as Righi was, and it's entirely possible I would have "handled" the guy to get him off my vehicle. The last time I was pulled over I was coming home at about 3am, after being the DD for the evening. Did the breathalyser, the whole nine yards, and when he asked if he could search my vehicle, I asked what for. He said "anything illegal" (he is supposed to specify, weapons, drugs, etc) so I said no. He asked if he could open my tailgate (which I keep locked, and with the tonneau on, serves as a trunk and the same rules apply) I said no. Finally another car pulled up with the K9 unit. Did the whole walk around, sniffed the fender wells, door seams, etc, nothing. After the K9 found nothing, I was allowed to leave. Took a half hour out of my life for being a responsible citizen and driving my friends home when they couldn't.
The reason I didn't let him search is that the last time my vehicle was searched, they spent 20min going through it, and found nothing. They opened rear panels inside, spilled receipts from the glove box all over the floor, spilled change from the cup holder all over the floor, and basically made a mess of my vehicle. I was young (16) and naive then, not knowing the law, and let them do what they told me they were allowed to do. Now I know better. Yeah, it can be an inconvenience, but I love seeing that dumbfounded look on a cop's face when I blow a 0.00 on their little toys.
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
That's the point, it happens all the time and it shouldn't. We've become so used to it, it's more convenient to just let them do whatever than to keep our rights.
What's right is not always easy, and what's easy is not always right.
Alan Beaulieu
Active Member
If the wallet was taken out during a simple pat down than i can see the problem. However, if it was taken out after he was "arrested" than it became a "search incident to apprehnsion" and than its fair game.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I agree, Jeff C, that it shouldn't happen, but it does happen all the time in various stores.
For example, at Costco, there are no bags, and it would be rather easy to push a cart full of stuff out without paying. So, they check receipts at the door...and check everybody.
Other stores will check your bag and receipt if an alarm goes off because someone forgot to disable a anti-theft tag. In this case, there is probable cause.
However, I have never had anyone "randomly" spot-check a bag or ask for a receipt. That has never happened to me, and if it did, I would be upset.
Others have said that their local WalMart, Lowes, or Home Depot checks bags, and receipts....I have never had that happen in any of the stores I have been in.
Best Buy has a guy by the door that observes people as they go and will ask for a receipt if he doesn't see the familiar yellow bag...again, that could be considered probable cause. I haven't shopped at Circuit City in a long time, so I can't be sure.
I suspect these stores are within their rights to observe those that are leaving and ask for receipts if they deem necessary. I tend to disagree with the "absolute" notion that "once they hand you the bag then it is your property". I believe in that in general, but I can see there being exceptions. I say that because so many stores are layed out poorly such that it is quite possible for people to easily stuff product in their bags after leaving the checkout line. Is that the store's fault...sure, I guess.
What about the kid that pays at the register, but then as he is exiting takes the stuff out of the bag, puts the bag and contents in his pockets all as he leaves the store? Depending on when observed, he might look very suspicious...again, probable cause.
Ultimately it is their store. If you don't like it, and their policies and procedures, don't shop there.
In this story I am much more tolerant and forgiving of the store asking for the receipt. I am very intolerant of the store manager illegally holding the family (assuming there was no real wrong-doing); and 100% intolerant of the police requesting ID, again in the absence of wrong-doing.
TJR
For example, at Costco, there are no bags, and it would be rather easy to push a cart full of stuff out without paying. So, they check receipts at the door...and check everybody.
Other stores will check your bag and receipt if an alarm goes off because someone forgot to disable a anti-theft tag. In this case, there is probable cause.
However, I have never had anyone "randomly" spot-check a bag or ask for a receipt. That has never happened to me, and if it did, I would be upset.
Others have said that their local WalMart, Lowes, or Home Depot checks bags, and receipts....I have never had that happen in any of the stores I have been in.
Best Buy has a guy by the door that observes people as they go and will ask for a receipt if he doesn't see the familiar yellow bag...again, that could be considered probable cause. I haven't shopped at Circuit City in a long time, so I can't be sure.
I suspect these stores are within their rights to observe those that are leaving and ask for receipts if they deem necessary. I tend to disagree with the "absolute" notion that "once they hand you the bag then it is your property". I believe in that in general, but I can see there being exceptions. I say that because so many stores are layed out poorly such that it is quite possible for people to easily stuff product in their bags after leaving the checkout line. Is that the store's fault...sure, I guess.
What about the kid that pays at the register, but then as he is exiting takes the stuff out of the bag, puts the bag and contents in his pockets all as he leaves the store? Depending on when observed, he might look very suspicious...again, probable cause.
Ultimately it is their store. If you don't like it, and their policies and procedures, don't shop there.
In this story I am much more tolerant and forgiving of the store asking for the receipt. I am very intolerant of the store manager illegally holding the family (assuming there was no real wrong-doing); and 100% intolerant of the police requesting ID, again in the absence of wrong-doing.
TJR
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Just for the record, I know where Brookyln, Ohio is.
Suburbs of Cleveland are knowns for their @$$hole cops. Boston Heights is known as being the "Home of the Boston Strangler". Brooklyn, Brooklyn Heights, Parma, Parma Heights, Solon, etc. all derive millions of income for the city/townships through to Police forces.
Something we also do not know. The color of the man. Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio is nicknames Caucasian Falls because it is common knowledge that those that are not white really are not welcomed in that town. Drive around the Falls at 11 PM wearing Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Arab skin and you will get pulled over. Tell the cop it was because of your skin color you were pulled over, they will tell you to have a good evening.
The same goes for the suburbs of Cleveland. They are prodominatly white neighborhoods that the police work at keeping it that way.
I was able to find a picture of the man.
[Broken External Image]:
This all makes sense to me now.
Tom
Suburbs of Cleveland are knowns for their @$$hole cops. Boston Heights is known as being the "Home of the Boston Strangler". Brooklyn, Brooklyn Heights, Parma, Parma Heights, Solon, etc. all derive millions of income for the city/townships through to Police forces.
Something we also do not know. The color of the man. Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio is nicknames Caucasian Falls because it is common knowledge that those that are not white really are not welcomed in that town. Drive around the Falls at 11 PM wearing Black, Asian, Hispanic, or Arab skin and you will get pulled over. Tell the cop it was because of your skin color you were pulled over, they will tell you to have a good evening.
The same goes for the suburbs of Cleveland. They are prodominatly white neighborhoods that the police work at keeping it that way.
I was able to find a picture of the man.
[Broken External Image]:
This all makes sense to me now.
Tom
Jeff C
Well-Known Member
TJR, at Costo, you have to pay to be a member, and I assume sign something and get some kind of card. At that point, yes, you are under their rules/regs and waive some rights when you enter, but in a standard retail store open to the public, you don't waive any rights granted to you by the Constitution.
Rich Stern
Well-Known Member
Alan, according to the blog, he was searched before he was told he was being arrested.
He was also arrested illegally. The wallet should not have been taken, and even if the officer had told him he was under arrest, it's forbidden fruit because there was no reasonable suspicion of a crime. Just a guy insisting on his rights being respected. And the very thing he was trying to protect, his right to privacy, was violated by the specific punitive act of the police officer.
The officer screwed this up. I understand how this happened, but he should either be better trained or, if already trained properly, he should learn to excercise more personal restraint when it comes to dealing with the public. He's there to protect rights, not violate them.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
And how does the store know that this has happened? How do then know that you weren't in collusion with the cashier? To the security guard's knowledge, the transaction never happened, and the contents of the bag are the store's property.
Wrong. They absolutely can. If you're wearing a t-shirt with a profane, offensive slogan, they can demand that you remove the shirt from the store. They can demand that you not bring pets into the store. In many states, they can demand that you not bring weapons into the store. They can demand that you not smoke in the store. They can demand that you not bring food or beverage into the store. They can demand that you not ride a skateboard in the store. All these items are "your property", and they can make these demands of you in regard to that property.
Rich Stern
Well-Known Member
Doesn't matter. They have a burden of providing reasonable suspicion of a crime to the police in order for the police to effect a stop and investigation. Just because you participate in normal, everyday transactions that COULD be twisted for criminal purposes, doesn't make you a criminal, nor does it subject you to being investigated for criminal behavior. The 4th Amendment guarantees you the right to be secure in your person and property, unless certain things happen. Legally buying something and walking out of a store is not one of those things.
Those are tresspass demands relative to their property. My right to own those things does not mean I can take them wherever I like. However, if I happen to be inside the store with one of those store policy prohibited items, I haven't ceded any right of ownership or privacy. All they can do is demand that I leave their property. I walk out with my FU t-shirt and my Weimaraner and I am on my way, having violated no law.
Those are generally by statute, in which case I would be breaking the law and subject to prosecution by the city or state whose statute I violated. That crime would be "Anytown USA v. Rich Stern," not "Circuit City v. Rich Stern."
Again, these are tresspass issues, not ownership or privacy issues. Even if I violate their policies on these issues, the items I used in violation are not subject to forfeiture.
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Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
You know, in the Ozarks we have a saying: "Are you my daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadd?"!
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
JeffC said:
Sorry, I am not buying that.
Yes, I understand what illegal search and seizure is, but ultimately all a store has do is that which is not "unreasonable", and/or show some probable cause, then any request (or demand) to check your bags IS Constitutional.
What if stores started to install doorway-sized "Airport-screening" like X-RAY machines (has anyone seen "Total Recall"), that displayed to a security guard all that you had on your person, in your pockets, in your bags, in your backpack?
Would that be unconstitutional? We allow that at the airport...why not at Best Buy?
(playing Devil's Advocate here a bit)
TJR
Sorry, I am not buying that.
Yes, I understand what illegal search and seizure is, but ultimately all a store has do is that which is not "unreasonable", and/or show some probable cause, then any request (or demand) to check your bags IS Constitutional.
What if stores started to install doorway-sized "Airport-screening" like X-RAY machines (has anyone seen "Total Recall"), that displayed to a security guard all that you had on your person, in your pockets, in your bags, in your backpack?
Would that be unconstitutional? We allow that at the airport...why not at Best Buy?
(playing Devil's Advocate here a bit)
TJR
