Missing Boy in the N.C. Mountains Found Alive.

[Thomas Rogers]

BigBear,



The policy says BSA doesn't allow homosexual leaders and I respect their right to make that policy and even respect and uphold the policy as I did as a leader.



But the policy doesn't say that to be a leader you have to NOT condone homosexuality. That would be a different policy. If that were the policy, I probably wouldn't have been part of the organization....simply because the word "condone" is too subjective. For example, if I had a gay son and didn't disown him, some might say that is condoning his homosexuality.



I understand the difference is minor, and I understand my actions are somewhat hypocritical, but by and large, even in light of BSA's current policy it is a very worthwhile organization to be a part of, and to dismiss the entire org because of its one leader qualification would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.



TJR

 

[Jim Reeves]

Never considered you to be hypocritical, just wasn't clear on your meaning. I do understand now.

if I had a gay son and didn't disown him, some might say that is condoning his homosexuality.

And they would be wrong. I have a 14 year old daughter, and don't know what the future holds, except that I will always love her.

Take it easy.

 

[Tom Schindler]

BigBear,



What would be the difference between a openly homosexual person and one that keeps it in the closet? How about a guy that has immoral thoughts about young boys? What if he keeps it a secret, as most, if not all, do? Does that help you sleep better at night.



Just because a gay man is attracted to men does not mean he wants to play with boys. It is no different thinking that a straight guy wants to play with girls.



Maybe all troop leaders should be female since men are more apt to be a pedophile than women are.



Honestly, this whole "Gays are bad people" thing should be let go. I find homosexuality gross, but I respect someones life as such.



Just because someone is gay does not mean they do not deserve the SAME rights that all of us enjoy. They should be allowed to get married, though in my opinion, no government should be allowed to marry people. It should be a civil union because that is what it is. Marriage originated in the Bible.



As long as we limit what the Gay/Lesbian community are allowed to participate in, we only open ourselves to those that keep their personal life in secret and we think something is right when it really isn't.



I recommend you guys watch the show "Penn & Teller Bullsh!t!". They had an episode about the BSA. Rather interesting.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen, I really like Penn and Teller. I didn't see what they did on Boy Scouts, but you inspired me to watch their episode on "abstinence" on-demand. Funny stuff that makes me sad of some ideas that people cling to and how even our govt is sponsoring abstince-only programs instead of much more responsible and realistic programs like those provided by Planned Parenthood.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

You should see how the government sponsors the BSA too.



They bring up some very valid points.



I went and seen them while Theresa and I were in Las Vegas. Great show and got to shake their hands after the show. I even heard Teller talk.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



I have seen some of the controversy with regards to the govt sponsorship of the BSA. The ACLU was suing the govt over it at the last national jamboree because of all the donations, use of old equipment, national guard support, etc. The ACLU said that since the BSA was a discriminatory org, the US govt shouldn't support them. And, the ACLU had a point, and because of this, the US govt is doing less for the BSA.



I saw Penn and Teller live at Coors Field in Co. Did you see them do the "bullet catch in the mouth" trick?



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

The ACLU said that since the BSA was a discriminatory org, the US govt shouldn't support them. And, the ACLU had a point, and because of this, the US govt is doing less for the BSA.

That still does not change the fact that the government is supporting a "Private organization".

Did you see them do the "bullet catch in the mouth" trick?

Yes we did. We were sitting in the second row.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen you say:



"That still does not change the fact that the government is supporting a "Private organization"."





I'm not sure what your point is there. Is it that the ACLU was wrong in what it did, or that the govt was wrong in supporting the BSA?





TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

The government is supporting the BSA. A private organization should not recieve support from the government.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



Private organizations receive support from the govt all the time.



For example, not-for-profit and charitable orgs can obtain tax-exempt status, that's a form of govt support.



Furthermore, there are TONS of "endowment" programs that have the govt providing support for private organizations.



It happens all the time. Sure, it's controversial, and yes, there are typically rules associated with such support and arrangements between private orgs and the govt, but there are plenty of examples.



Try a Google search on: government support private organizations



TJR

 

[Jim Reeves]

Tom, I'm not really sure what your problem is

Does that help you sleep better at night.

but I sleep just fine. For someone who seems to spout how important it is to let people live their own lives, you sure do seem to get defensive when someone has an opinion different from you. I don't recall making any comment directed towards anyone on this forum, and I'm not sure why you feel you need to do so. As far as your question about what is the difference between someone who is openly homosexual and someone who is a closet homosexual, i've reread what I have written and don't see where I ever said there was a difference. If you read that into anything that i have written, you are mistaken.

Honestly, this whole "Gays are bad people" thing should be let go.

If you are suggesting that I ever said that homosexuals were bad people, or at least any worse on average than anyone else, once again you are wrong. I never said that and I don't believe that. I believe that homosexuality is wrong. I don't believe that they should be allowed to get married because I believe that marriage is an institution between one man and one woman (I get this from the Bible, too, by the way)





I don't expect people to agree with me, and I don't attack them when they don't. That's a sure sign of being unsure of your convictions. As far as "Penn & Teller", I prefer to get my information from a little higher source, but thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

Well, let me first respond to what was first said....

Also, I'm not sure I understand what you meant by: "not worry about their 'purity' if you know what I mean."

Having been involved with the BSA for nearly 15 years (been through it all from Webelos through Eagle Scout and as an adult leader) I have been through more training than I really care to recall. Being a summer camp staff member we were trained to recognize signs of abuse. We were trained in the Youth Protection Guidelines that is REQUIRED for ALL ADULT LEADERS of the BSA. The basics are there for your protection as an adult and for the protection of the kids. This is not a gay vs straight position, this is a protection of the innocense of the scout issue.



Are gays more likely to molest my son than a "straight" man? No. It doesn't matter. I still have no qualms sending my son out with a BSA troop.

I know what he means. The BSA do not allow Gays to participate. Though it has been studied that Gays are no more likely to be a pedophile than someone straight and in some studies, straight men are more likely to "play with kids" than a Gay man is.



Too bad so many people have that "since someone is gay, they must be a pervert" idea's

I am not one of your "so many people". I vigerously disagree with the homosexual lifestyle. I do not hate gay people, I hate the sin of homosexuality, much the same way that I hate the sin of abortion, the sin of prostitution, the sin of adultary, the sin of lieing, the sin of theft, etc. It's all the same level, there is none greater or less than the other. There are more that I hate just as equally, many I am personally guilty of.



With the BSA, the lifstyle requirements that they espouse and demand that the leaders live up to is the Christian lifestyle that Baden Powell defended and promoted. Other countries (such as Canada, England and Switzerland) have moved their Boy Scout organizations away from the Christian-based messages and such towards the secular. The day that the BSA does this is the day that the BSA dies.



My origional comments about the boy getting his wilderness survival merit badge were more tounge-in-cheek. This boy was suffering severe homesickness, something that doesn't take much training to see. Anyone who's ever had it and made it through can usually spot it (I know that I've been there and have helped several scouts in camp make it through the week and really enjoy being in camp based on my experiences wanting to go home at any cost).



I have never seen the Penn and Teller BS episode on the BSA. Frankly, I don't care. They can cram it. I've seen what they did with "Gun Control" and "PETA" They are generally fair, but why do I need to waste my time? If you don't like the BSA, fine. Don't let your kids get involved with them, go to Awanas or similar group. The BSA is a fine organization for teaching boys to be their best. To help the find themselves. To help them find the avenue of life they want to walk. I am the oldest of three boys in my family. All three of us were in Scouts. I am the only one to go from the beginning to the end. My middle brother dropped out at Star. My youngest brother did the same, but for different reasons. Are they any better or worse than I am? No. They took a different path. I would not be I am or where I am today without the BSA.



You can have your differening opinion, fine. I'm not going to attack you, call you names or demean you in any manner.



All I ask you to do is:

1) Do Your Best

2) Do A Good Turn Daily

3) On your honor, do you best, do your duty to God and country, obey the Scout Law, help other people at all times, keep yourself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

4) Be trustworthy, loyal, honest, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverant.

5) As an American, be clean in your

 

[Tom Schindler]

Tom, I'm not really sure what your problem is

There is nothing wrong with me.

I don't believe that they should be allowed to get married because I believe that marriage is an institution between one man and one woman (I get this from the Bible, too, by the way)

That is why I disagree with the government being allowed to marry people. A civil union should only be done by the government.



As for the comment about an openly gay person, you said the following...

Seeing as how Coastiejoe did read it and replied, I asked if you knew there was an openly homosexual leader in the Scout troop, would you allow your 10 year old son to attend a camping trip?

It looks like if someone is open about their sexuality, it is different than someone that isn't. If it is better to have a gay guy act straight then to have a gay guy be gay.



Like straight people, gay people do not walk around singing "I am gay, everybody should live this way!" around children. Homosexuals are not freaks. They are people just like you and I and they deserve to be treated that way.



It is a shame that anyone would support an organization that will not allow the best suited person to do the job because of their sexually orientation.

As far as "Penn & Teller", I prefer to get my information from a little higher source, but thanks for the suggestion.

That is taking the easy way out. Automatically ignore other sources of information, though they are backed up by facts.



I am not trying to put you down. I am just trying to throw some reasoning into idea's.



We think it is OK to ban a gay person from the BSA, though gay men have no more incidents of child molestation. Gay guys may be attracted to men, but that still does not mean that they are attracted to young boys. If you are really in fear for the safety of your children and the safety of the scouts, require women only as troop leaders.



They have the least incidence of child molestation.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

R Shek. Thanks for chiming in.



Let's continue this healthy debate.



R Shek says:

I hate the sin of homosexuality, much the same way that I hate the sin of abortion, the sin of prostitution, the sin of adultary, the sin of lieing, the sin of theft, etc. It's all the same level, there is none greater or less than the other.

Oh, really? All sins are the same?



Well I have to ask. Is the sin of eating certain shellfish or pork as described in the OT the same as the sin of murder?



Furthermore, there are 10 Commandments. Stealing, Lieing, Adultery, even Abortion if you stretch the definition are all listed there. Why list only 10, in stone, sent directly from God to the people through Moses. If you list only 10, I bet you pick that list pretty carefully, selecting those that are the most agregious (sp?). I don't see homosexuality in that list. So, I guess the case could pretty easily be made that there are greater sins than others, at least in the Old Testament.



Likewise, all the sins you mentioned, EXCEPT homosexuality are sins of choice. All credible evidence shows that homosexuality is a pre-wired sexual preference, not a choice. You can disagree with that belief, but that's would be an irrational belief that flys in the face of all evidence and common sense (e.g. few if any would chose to be gay).



So, if someone is born a homosexual (if for the sake of argument that is what happens), then for them to NOT sin, they have to lead a sexless life. Why shouldn't a homosexual be able to enjoy the same thing you enjoy, sex with a loving partner, and not be labeled a sinner, be judged by man, and persecuted by man?



Regarding the Bible and its supposed statements against homosexuality, there are so few of them, and like so much else in the Bible the scripture can and has been used to make the cases, credibly, for both points-of-view.



Read more if you wish at the link below:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

BTW, I don't want to label, but I do find it ironic that the pro-gay (never thought of myself as that, but I guess if you are NOT anti, then you must be pro) are from the NE, and the anti-gay are from the South.



Part of the divide in this country. Don't call me a hater. Just observing a demographic.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen said:

It is a shame that anyone would support an organization that will not allow the best suited person to do the job because of their sexually orientation.

I support the BSA and I disagree with their stance here. I support them because I am a realist and understand that large, national organizations will have opinions on a variety of subject matters and if I chose not to be affiliated with an org because I disagreed on one item then I would be left out of a lot of things.



Furthermore, I am a Christian and part of a church, though I understand their opinion of gay marriage. For example, I just joined the leadership team of our church, and I have been instrumental in getting our church to begin to speak about "controversial" topics like: homosexuality, abstinence, etc.



No, Caymen, I disagree. I don't think what I am doing is shameful.



I am actually trying to take the best from the organizations, and where I find things I don't like change hearts and minds from the inside.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

TJR,



I do not call myself "pro-Gay". I actually find the activity gross. IMO, there is nothing attractive about a male body.



I do not like the fact that someone thinks just because someone is gay they are any or all of the following...



1. a pervert.

2. sick

3. pedophile

4. retarted

5. less of a human being

6. unqualified to do the same things a straight person can do



Gays are people too. They pay tax's. They live their lives.



If gays were all one color, we wouldn't have this discussion.





Tom



p.s. I do feel this is another healthy discussion that, so far, we have kept civil.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen,



I too don't consider myself "pro-Gay" to the point that I would join a rally or whatever.



But I am definitely not "anti-gay", and I guess I, like you, can surely be seen as "anti-anti-gay"....so not to mince words, that makes us more on the "pro-gay" side.



And, yes, this is a healthy discussion.



TJR

 

[Fred]

I saw a healthy, tolerant, T-shirt for sale in Key West last week. It said, "So many right wing, straight, Christians, so few lions."



Oh yeah, I'm glad the boy was found.

 

[Jim Reeves]

Tom

You quoted me correctly but misunderstood my meaning:

Seeing as how Coastiejoe did read it and replied, I asked if you knew there was an openly homosexual leader in the Scout troop, would you allow your 10 year old son to attend a camping trip?

I wasn't comparing openly homosexual to closet homosexual, but was saying if they were openly homosexual then you would know, whereas if they were not open about their homosexuality you wouldn't have any reason to suspect that they were. You couldn't be concerned about something that you didn't know about.

Like straight people, gay people do not walk around singing "I am gay, everybody should live this way!" around children. Homosexuals are not freaks. They are people just like you and I and they deserve to be treated that way.

i assume you've never seen a "Gay" pride rally, then. I certainly didn't suggest that homosexuals were freaks.



I do, however think that homosexuality is a perversion.

That is taking the easy way out. Automatically ignore other sources of information, though they are backed up by facts.



I am not trying to put you down. I am just trying to throw some reasoning into idea's.

Penn & Teller will never be on my list as keen sources of valid information, sorry. They are comedians for the love of Pete!



TJR:

Oh, really? All sins are the same?

In the eyes of God, yes. This is not the time nor place to get into anyone's theology, but I am convinced that to God, sin is sin. The bible makes that very clear to me. Of course they are not the same in man's eyes. God has dealt with mankind in different ways at different times. The 10 commandments were given to the Jewish people at a time when they were under the law. The Bible is a complete book, and unless you study complete story, it is very easy to take bits and pieces out and misinterpret them. My opinion, don't expect you to agree.



I don't hate anybody. I don't hate homosexuals. I think homosexuality is a sin. I think it is a perversion of what God intended for man. There are many people who suggest that if you don't accept homosexuality as a perfectly fine lifestyle you are homophobic or bigoted. That is simply not true, and saying it a thousand times won't make it true.



Everyone seems to want to preach tolerance these days, as if tolerance is some kind wonderful thing. That's so untrue. People were tolerant of slavery, people are tolerant of racism, people were tolerant of how the Jews were treated Under Hitler. I'm not gonna laugh at people being fed to lions because of their religious beliefs, because it actually happened. I'm not gonna be tolerant of every vile idea that is spewed forth from the television, and the media and celebrities. I am not gonna be tolerant of those who wish to harm my family. I don't want to be socially acceptable of things that are socially repugnant, and I will not be.

Thanks for allowing me to be part of this discussion.