Depends if "daddy" is bigger than you. If so, it isn't a choice. LOL
Tom
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Depends if "daddy" is bigger than you. If so, it isn't a choice. LOL
Tom
I think many of you are trying to play a game of symantics regarding the word “Prefersâ€, and perhaps I did not explain my meaning very well.
I don’t know why gays are gay, but I doubt that it is anything genetic, or physiological.
There is nothing that prevents a gay person from having a heterosexual relationship, they just “Prefer†same-sex relationships. If a person is bi-sexual, are they considered gay if they are with the same-sex or heterosexual when with the opposite sex.
I personally think that some childhood experience had a profound change in how they view their sexuality. They are not driven by some uncontrollable urge to only seek same-sex relationships.
I don’t believe anybody is born gay, nor is anyone born heterosexual, or a pediphile, etc. The same applies to vegetarians, thieves, people with bi-polar disorders and many other personality traits that many consider different from mainstream society. When this deviations from the norm negatively affects our society or makes victims of the innocent children, etc then they become criminal. In all these cases, it is the individuals choice to make, although for some, that choice may be far more difficult or clouded by their early childhood experiences that changed their perspective.
A gay person may know that much of society does not accept homosexual relationships but they may not be attracted to the opposite sex as much as they are attracted to the same-sex. This is not an addiction because they is no physical dependency, and so it is a very strong preference.
I don’t know what causes someone to be gay, I don’t know if it was caused by them be molested by a male or female, or if someone was raised by a single parent, of even if someone just said something to the child that cause a profound change in that persons view of love and sex?
The only problem with gays it the stigma that our conservative society places on them. What goes on between consenting adults is nobody else’s business. Yet it is religion and society that has made sex a moral issue and attempts to place rules and restrictions on something that is very personal an private to most people and rarely effects anyone else outside the bedroom door. Despite all the laws and religious taboos, there is probably the same percentage of the population that is homosexual as there were thousands of years ago.
…Rich
I don’t know why gays are gay, but I doubt that it is anything genetic, or physiological.
There is nothing that prevents a gay person from having a heterosexual relationship, they just “Prefer†same-sex relationships. If a person is bi-sexual, are they considered gay if they are with the same-sex or heterosexual when with the opposite sex.
I personally think that some childhood experience had a profound change in how they view their sexuality. They are not driven by some uncontrollable urge to only seek same-sex relationships.
I don’t believe anybody is born gay, nor is anyone born heterosexual, or a pediphile, etc. The same applies to vegetarians, thieves, people with bi-polar disorders and many other personality traits that many consider different from mainstream society. When this deviations from the norm negatively affects our society or makes victims of the innocent children, etc then they become criminal. In all these cases, it is the individuals choice to make, although for some, that choice may be far more difficult or clouded by their early childhood experiences that changed their perspective.
A gay person may know that much of society does not accept homosexual relationships but they may not be attracted to the opposite sex as much as they are attracted to the same-sex. This is not an addiction because they is no physical dependency, and so it is a very strong preference.
I don’t know what causes someone to be gay, I don’t know if it was caused by them be molested by a male or female, or if someone was raised by a single parent, of even if someone just said something to the child that cause a profound change in that persons view of love and sex?
The only problem with gays it the stigma that our conservative society places on them. What goes on between consenting adults is nobody else’s business. Yet it is religion and society that has made sex a moral issue and attempts to place rules and restrictions on something that is very personal an private to most people and rarely effects anyone else outside the bedroom door. Despite all the laws and religious taboos, there is probably the same percentage of the population that is homosexual as there were thousands of years ago.
…Rich
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
What about truck preference? Is it genetic or is it a learned behavior? For example, what makes some people prefer SportTracs, others prefer Avalanches, and others prefer Ridgelines?
Is it a choice or a genetic birth defect?
Is it a choice or a genetic birth defect?
but I doubt that it is anything genetic
Actualy, scientists think they have found a "gay" gene, so it is possible that they have no choice but to be gay.
If it is proven that there is a gene that makes someone gay, that will shake up society and religon for years to come.
Tom
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I read an article that sexual preference is genetic- exactly the same as left-handed or right-handedness.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
RichardL said:
I have an uncontrollable urge for opposite-sex relationships. Was I born with that, or did something happen to me as a child that made me that way>
There are 8, 9 and 10 year-old, pre-pubicient (sp?) boys and girls that I have seen that I have sworn would likely grow up gay...and more often then not I was right.
Some boys are simply effeminate, and some girls butch, (that's a gender identification mismatch) and those folks are often gay. Are they gay because they have gender identification issues, or do they have gender id issues because they are gay? I dunno. But I think it is often because they are gay, first and foremost.
As I said, I think the dominant reason people are gay is genetics. You think it is environmental. Evidence and studies seems to make mine the more popular opinion.
TJR
I personally think that some childhood experience had a profound change in how they view their sexuality. They are not driven by some uncontrollable urge to only seek same-sex relationships.
I have an uncontrollable urge for opposite-sex relationships. Was I born with that, or did something happen to me as a child that made me that way>
There are 8, 9 and 10 year-old, pre-pubicient (sp?) boys and girls that I have seen that I have sworn would likely grow up gay...and more often then not I was right.
Some boys are simply effeminate, and some girls butch, (that's a gender identification mismatch) and those folks are often gay. Are they gay because they have gender identification issues, or do they have gender id issues because they are gay? I dunno. But I think it is often because they are gay, first and foremost.
As I said, I think the dominant reason people are gay is genetics. You think it is environmental. Evidence and studies seems to make mine the more popular opinion.
TJR
Bill V
Well-Known Member
BillV,
Chocoholism is an addiction. You are never really cured. You will always be a chocoholic, and your family and friends that can eat just one Hershey's bar wiill never really understand your affliction.
TJR
Not everyone who likes chocolate is an addict. In my example, I wasn't talking about them--and maybe that particular example should be dropped simply because of the fact that chocolate can become an addiction, and that muddies the issue.
What I'm trying to say is that when you prefer one food palate over another--be it that you prefer the flavor of chocolate over vanilla, or meat over vegetables, or cola over orange juice, or whatever--it's generally not something that you are consciously choosing. Putting my previous example another way, if you happen to be someone whose taste buds prefer the taste of meat, you can't suddenly intentionally choose to not like the taste of beef anymore. You might make a conscious effort to eat less meat (intentionally overriding your taste-based preference), you might make a choice to not eat meat at all for what you feel to be ethical reasons, etc.--but in the long run, your taste buds still prefer the taste of meat. (OK, after typing that, I just realized that that last phrase could easily REALLY be taken the wrong way in the context of making an analogy to homosexuality. I assure you that wasn't my intent.)
Yes, there is a choice involved--whether to follow the natural inclination of your taste buds, or to intentionally ignore them. But you can't choose to not have your taste buds enjoy that flavor. And in that way, it is the same as sexual orientation--You can choose whether or not you act on your sexual preferences, but you can't choose what those fundamental preferences are.
TJR,
I don't know if you or anyone is born with any sexual preferences? I think we like to assume that we are born with heterosexual preferences, however, at this time that cannot be proven.
My point is that humans are born as one of the most helpless animals on the planet. We do not even have instincts that other animals have to survive without adult help until we are many years older.
Every controled human behavior is learned. We are not born with any instinctive knowledge. If a child is not taught by his parents, teachers, or from friends on the playground, that child will become an adult without any concept of sex and love relationships. So that is why I say that sexual preference is determined by the childs environment during those formidable learning years.
Most people grow up in homes with at least one loving parent and are not denied exposure to schools, other children and other adults and we leatn something from all of them. We don't know what triggers someone to go from an innocent child to be gay, a criminal, a rapist, a pediphile, etc.
Scientist may say the have found a gene that might be responsible for people being gay, it does not identify what triggers that gene to turn on the gay behaviour? If it is geneitc then there is some external chemical taken after the child was born, or perhaps something that the mother took while pregnant that switches this gay gene on? I don't say that this chemical has to be anything that we know is dangerous, It could be a little extra chlorine or florixe in the water taken by the mother or child at just the right moment of developement...
But again, I don't really think being gay is caused by a genetic defect, it is a child developmental issue triggered by something very innocent that we do not yet understand. It could be something as suttle as a virus, bacteria, or even gettin stung by a bee, and ant, or mosquito at some critical moment yet has no other signs or syptoms for 15 or 20 years?
...Rich
I don't know if you or anyone is born with any sexual preferences? I think we like to assume that we are born with heterosexual preferences, however, at this time that cannot be proven.
My point is that humans are born as one of the most helpless animals on the planet. We do not even have instincts that other animals have to survive without adult help until we are many years older.
Every controled human behavior is learned. We are not born with any instinctive knowledge. If a child is not taught by his parents, teachers, or from friends on the playground, that child will become an adult without any concept of sex and love relationships. So that is why I say that sexual preference is determined by the childs environment during those formidable learning years.
Most people grow up in homes with at least one loving parent and are not denied exposure to schools, other children and other adults and we leatn something from all of them. We don't know what triggers someone to go from an innocent child to be gay, a criminal, a rapist, a pediphile, etc.
Scientist may say the have found a gene that might be responsible for people being gay, it does not identify what triggers that gene to turn on the gay behaviour? If it is geneitc then there is some external chemical taken after the child was born, or perhaps something that the mother took while pregnant that switches this gay gene on? I don't say that this chemical has to be anything that we know is dangerous, It could be a little extra chlorine or florixe in the water taken by the mother or child at just the right moment of developement...
But again, I don't really think being gay is caused by a genetic defect, it is a child developmental issue triggered by something very innocent that we do not yet understand. It could be something as suttle as a virus, bacteria, or even gettin stung by a bee, and ant, or mosquito at some critical moment yet has no other signs or syptoms for 15 or 20 years?
...Rich
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I disagree RichardL.
You say:
Let's suppose infants are raised from birth through adulthood by robots, or eunichs, or other sexless beings, and never shown or presented with any notion of sexuality or gender. In other words, their environment and upbringing were void of sex, gender, etc.
It seems to be your assertion that such children that are raised to adulthood in this way would have no concept of sex, and therefore no sexual preference defined by their environment. Right?
So, what would happen if you then subjected that adult, sexless, sex and gender ignorant person to sexually provocative images (or gasp actual naked/inviting people), of the same sex and then of the opposite sex?
Are you saying that in such a long-term experiment you think that person that was raised to not know sex, and not know gender, and to have no environment sexual stimulae would not get aroused, by one or the other of the genders presented to him/her? If presented with equal access to sexual stimulae from both genders that the person wouldn't like "choose" a gender and a sex partner, one that is preferred to them? And if so, in such an experiment and such a choice, what would be the basis of their "preference"?
I submit that most would choose and about 10% would choose same-sex and about 90% would choose the opposite sex. I think genetics alone would guide their selection.
TJR
You say:
Every controled human behavior is learned. We are not born with any instinctive knowledge. If a child is not taught by his parents, teachers, or from friends on the playground, that child will become an adult without any concept of sex and love relationships. So that is why I say that sexual preference is determined by the childs environment during those formidable learning years.
Let's suppose infants are raised from birth through adulthood by robots, or eunichs, or other sexless beings, and never shown or presented with any notion of sexuality or gender. In other words, their environment and upbringing were void of sex, gender, etc.
It seems to be your assertion that such children that are raised to adulthood in this way would have no concept of sex, and therefore no sexual preference defined by their environment. Right?
So, what would happen if you then subjected that adult, sexless, sex and gender ignorant person to sexually provocative images (or gasp actual naked/inviting people), of the same sex and then of the opposite sex?
Are you saying that in such a long-term experiment you think that person that was raised to not know sex, and not know gender, and to have no environment sexual stimulae would not get aroused, by one or the other of the genders presented to him/her? If presented with equal access to sexual stimulae from both genders that the person wouldn't like "choose" a gender and a sex partner, one that is preferred to them? And if so, in such an experiment and such a choice, what would be the basis of their "preference"?
I submit that most would choose and about 10% would choose same-sex and about 90% would choose the opposite sex. I think genetics alone would guide their selection.
TJR
TJR,
Yep, that's exactly what I am saying. Children brought up without any gender recognition or knowledge of sex would not have any preconceived insticts of sex. Yes they would probably have a lot of curiosity, but if they could not get an answer to their basic questions like where did I come from, what are they doing in that movie, etc. If the movie depicted heterosexual couples and they appeared to be enjoying it, some would be curious enought to try that. If some where to see movies of homosexuals, some would be curious to try that instead. I also suspect that many would not understand what is going on in the movies and do neither.
Many years ago, BF Skinner (the rat maze guy) who believed that all human behaviour was learned, anctually locked his daughter in a box and wanted to control all of her outside stimulous so that he could prove his theory. His experiment failed becaus when he went to the office, his wife let the girl out of the box and treated her like a normal child which ruined his experiment.
Geneticly, humans can receive talents from their parents or even develop very unusual and difficult talents like music, etc, but there is even speculation that babies may even be learning in the womb and hearing music then, may give them a very big edge in developing some amazing musical talent...but then that is just speculation not fact.
...Rich
Yep, that's exactly what I am saying. Children brought up without any gender recognition or knowledge of sex would not have any preconceived insticts of sex. Yes they would probably have a lot of curiosity, but if they could not get an answer to their basic questions like where did I come from, what are they doing in that movie, etc. If the movie depicted heterosexual couples and they appeared to be enjoying it, some would be curious enought to try that. If some where to see movies of homosexuals, some would be curious to try that instead. I also suspect that many would not understand what is going on in the movies and do neither.
Many years ago, BF Skinner (the rat maze guy) who believed that all human behaviour was learned, anctually locked his daughter in a box and wanted to control all of her outside stimulous so that he could prove his theory. His experiment failed becaus when he went to the office, his wife let the girl out of the box and treated her like a normal child which ruined his experiment.
Geneticly, humans can receive talents from their parents or even develop very unusual and difficult talents like music, etc, but there is even speculation that babies may even be learning in the womb and hearing music then, may give them a very big edge in developing some amazing musical talent...but then that is just speculation not fact.
...Rich
Les
Well-Known Member
But again, I don't really think being gay is caused by a genetic defect, it is a child developmental issue triggered by something very innocent that we do not yet understand. It could be something as suttle as a virus, bacteria, or even gettin stung by a bee, and ant, or mosquito at some critical moment yet has no other signs or syptoms for 15 or 20 years?
The only one you didn't blame is GeorgeW. Need to do a little reading on the subject, if you are interested. Your opinions do not stand the test of time and research...
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Children brought up without any gender recognition or knowledge of sex would not have any preconceived insticts of sex.
That's not true--And "The Blue Lagoon" is my proof. :lol:
One visit to a Mental Retardation Hospital will prove to you sexual urges have nothing to do with what we see, but with what we are programed in our brains.
My sister is retarded. The state has her on Birth Control. Why? Becuase left unattended, these kids (men and women) though unable to speak, feed themselves, wipe thier rear ends, will screw like rabbits.
Tom
My sister is retarded. The state has her on Birth Control. Why? Becuase left unattended, these kids (men and women) though unable to speak, feed themselves, wipe thier rear ends, will screw like rabbits.
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
BillV, I was just thinking of the Blue Lagoon.
Caymen, yes, sex, especially sex with the opposite-sex is instinctive, not learned. We would like to think that the human animal is a blank slate at birth and programmed with its wants, desires, abilities, but clearly SO VERY CLEARLY, that is NOT the case. That is not to say that some things are learned and environmental...heck, most things are. But we certainly have instincts and things that are placed within us.
Left-hand, right-hand is a good example. Is it learned/environmental, or is it genetic?
TJR
Caymen, yes, sex, especially sex with the opposite-sex is instinctive, not learned. We would like to think that the human animal is a blank slate at birth and programmed with its wants, desires, abilities, but clearly SO VERY CLEARLY, that is NOT the case. That is not to say that some things are learned and environmental...heck, most things are. But we certainly have instincts and things that are placed within us.
Left-hand, right-hand is a good example. Is it learned/environmental, or is it genetic?
TJR
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
there is even speculation that babies may even be learning in the womb and hearing music then, may give them a very big edge in developing some amazing musical talent
So maybe a mom listening to rap and hip-hop could be interpreted as child abuse?
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Left-hand, right-hand is a good example. Is it learned/environmental, or is it genetic?
Both. People have natural, most likely genetic, tendencies--but that can be overridden by learning/environment.
Many studies have shown that the brains of left-handed people tend to fire differently than those of right-handed people. (This is what led to the commonly-heard "left half of the body is controlled by the right half of the brain, and vice versa"--which is largely urban legend, but is based on there being factual differences in brain function.) I don't recall where, but a few years ago I remember reading about a study of people who had debilitating injuries to their preferred hand/arm (the right hand/arm on right-handed people, or the left hand/arm on left-handed people). Simply from practice and from having no other options, those people learned to do tasks like writing using what used to be their "weak" hand, and in most cases developed those skills to where it was difficult to differentiate the results from their pre-injury, "strong" hand skills. But what surprised the researchers is that as these skills developed, cat scans and other tests showed that the change went deeper than that--the brains of the formerly right-handed people actually started to function like those of left-handers, and vice-versa. The learning/environment was acting on and overriding the genetic (or at least what was thought to be genetic) differences.
How much this applies to this discussion, I'll leave it for you to decide for yourself.
Last edited by a moderator:
Les
Well-Known Member
This is called neural plasticity and is different that pre-determined genetics.
Les,
You have no proof to over as evidence that there is any human instinctive behaviour other than breathing, eating, sleeping, etc.
Things like left handeded and right handed are based on how the brain is wired and these people also referred to left or right brained. If you are right handed you are probably left brained and your speach is controlled by the left side of the brain. If you are left handed, the opposite is true.
There are some things that may be inherited in our genes and some genes may posess some certain preconceived siposition for some trait. This may lead to an interest in some specific area like mathmatics or music. However if these traits are not recognized and proper training given to that child, those genes may never devlope into a given talent.
You are all free to believe what you want, and you can all talk about scientifice eveidence of genes, and insticts all you want...None of you have shown me any difinitive proof that there is a single instictive behavior that we are born that would determine someones sexual preference.
Caymen, as for people who are retarted, does not mean that there is no sexual drive. I have a 15 year old, severely retarted granddaughter and has been given shots to supress her periods and prevent pregnancies. The reason given by the doctor is so that if some male takes advantage of her mental condition she will not become pregnant, and she does not understand sex or her period...Not because she will turn into some kind of sex machine.
I do agree that some mentally defective people who discover sex through masterbation may find sex in any form pleasurable and it may become excessive and abusive. That does not mean they are neccessarily heterosexual, homosexual or even bi-sexual, they just want sexual gratification with anyone or anything. Even retarted people have the ability to learn and be taught, it's just slower and more difficult. My 15 year old granddaughter has the mental capacity of a child about 5 or six years old. She can walk, she can talk but not very clearly. and she can do some simple chores and even play some simple video games.
I think that the sexual urge is very different than sexual preference. We may develop a sexual urge when we reach puberty, but that does not determine if a person is heterosexual or homosexual. It is how that child grew up and experienced various male and female interactions and the effect it had on them at that moment in time. That's when the chile begins to form idea and concepts that they like or do not like.
...Rich
You have no proof to over as evidence that there is any human instinctive behaviour other than breathing, eating, sleeping, etc.
Things like left handeded and right handed are based on how the brain is wired and these people also referred to left or right brained. If you are right handed you are probably left brained and your speach is controlled by the left side of the brain. If you are left handed, the opposite is true.
There are some things that may be inherited in our genes and some genes may posess some certain preconceived siposition for some trait. This may lead to an interest in some specific area like mathmatics or music. However if these traits are not recognized and proper training given to that child, those genes may never devlope into a given talent.
You are all free to believe what you want, and you can all talk about scientifice eveidence of genes, and insticts all you want...None of you have shown me any difinitive proof that there is a single instictive behavior that we are born that would determine someones sexual preference.
Caymen, as for people who are retarted, does not mean that there is no sexual drive. I have a 15 year old, severely retarted granddaughter and has been given shots to supress her periods and prevent pregnancies. The reason given by the doctor is so that if some male takes advantage of her mental condition she will not become pregnant, and she does not understand sex or her period...Not because she will turn into some kind of sex machine.
I do agree that some mentally defective people who discover sex through masterbation may find sex in any form pleasurable and it may become excessive and abusive. That does not mean they are neccessarily heterosexual, homosexual or even bi-sexual, they just want sexual gratification with anyone or anything. Even retarted people have the ability to learn and be taught, it's just slower and more difficult. My 15 year old granddaughter has the mental capacity of a child about 5 or six years old. She can walk, she can talk but not very clearly. and she can do some simple chores and even play some simple video games.
I think that the sexual urge is very different than sexual preference. We may develop a sexual urge when we reach puberty, but that does not determine if a person is heterosexual or homosexual. It is how that child grew up and experienced various male and female interactions and the effect it had on them at that moment in time. That's when the chile begins to form idea and concepts that they like or do not like.
...Rich
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I submit that the so-called wiring of the brain to pre-dispose one to be left-handed or right-handed probably comes from genetic coding.
P.S. What's a retart? Is that like a pop-tart?
As for gay vs straight being largely environmental, I'm still not buying it. There are families with twins of the same sex (or so-called Irish twins...not really twins but a year or so apart in age), and clearly these siblings have the same up-bringing and the same environment...but there are examples where one is gay and one isn't (see link).
TJR
P.S. What's a retart? Is that like a pop-tart?
As for gay vs straight being largely environmental, I'm still not buying it. There are families with twins of the same sex (or so-called Irish twins...not really twins but a year or so apart in age), and clearly these siblings have the same up-bringing and the same environment...but there are examples where one is gay and one isn't (see link).
TJR
Richard L,
I agree with what you are saying. The sex drive is still attractivness to someone of the opposite sex, if that is your orientation.
If science was able to produce evidence that homosexuals were that way because of a chemical imbalance, brain wiring, gene, or any other scientifically proven fact, would you still continue to call it a prefrence.
I guess you could be right. You prefered to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex to the point where you had no desire to be attracted to someone of the same sex.
A Gay would prefer to be attracted to someone of the same sex to the point where they have no desire to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex.
Of course, you have no choice in that matter, but a gay does.
Tom
I agree with what you are saying. The sex drive is still attractivness to someone of the opposite sex, if that is your orientation.
If science was able to produce evidence that homosexuals were that way because of a chemical imbalance, brain wiring, gene, or any other scientifically proven fact, would you still continue to call it a prefrence.
I guess you could be right. You prefered to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex to the point where you had no desire to be attracted to someone of the same sex.
A Gay would prefer to be attracted to someone of the same sex to the point where they have no desire to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex.
Of course, you have no choice in that matter, but a gay does.
Tom
