Looks Like The Laws of Supply and Demand Are Working

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Nope, the story is true, I don't know how this guy got this job since I had to even show him in one of the MCP's which wires were hot and which were ground. The idiot even connected up an E-STOP device with a red wire on one end of the contact and a white on the other. Just seems the union should have sent him to some electrical training school before turning him loose on a job such as this with 480vac panels.



While doin a job in Miami, I had 4 electricians and we needed them to connect 8 wires between two MCP's.....the wires were already pulled, they just needed to land them. I gave them a sketch on which wire went where........a 45 min job tops.....it took them over a day to complete the connections. I could have done it myself, but due to "union rules", I wasn't allowed in the panels.



The unions west of the Mississippi seemed easier to work with, most didn't mind us helping with wiring and mods to the panels, but the ones east was always a battle on what we could or couldn't touch even though it was our system and we were trained in what we did. For the amount of work that needed to be done, we didn't take away their work and in most cases asked for more workers and paid their overtime to get the job completed ontime.
 
Caymen said:
Continue to stick your fingers in your ears singing "La La La" over and over.



...



p.s. take your fingers out of your ears. Until you have dealt with the manufacturing field for many years, you can never truly understand. Working for a summer as a helper is not the same. please do not insult me with the old spew you throw out of your mouth.
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"Do not insult" YOU? You are kidding right? You say I have my fingers in my ears! You say I am saying "La, la, la." You assume things about a summer job (you know nothing of what I did), and you cut/paste my words and reply to them, all when ignoring the simple fact that as I said above, people are in the situations they are in because of the choices they make.

If someone didn't see 40 years ago that manufacturing in this country was a dead-end, then that's their fault.



You say I can't understand the manufacturing field until I have been in it for years.



You have no idea what I can and can't understand...what anyone that is willing to listen and understand without bias can truly understand. I submit that I can probably make compelling, thoughtful insights into the manufacturing field AND its future because I am not vested in it and I am removed from it. I am impartial. Are you?



Caymen also said:
The good employers keep unions away. The bad employers become good employers because they have security guards (the union) in place to make sure everyone plays fair.



What is wrong with that?
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Nothing...but again if unions only attempt to make better the BAD employers as we agreed, and bad employers fail while good employers thrive, then UNIONS act as some sort of "life support" for bad companies.



If left to their own, bad companies would die quicker...problem solved...What's wrong with that?



TJR
 
That is not the way it works.



FWIW, I have a new position in the company. I have already said what I am not doing.



How you been listening or are your fingers in your ears?...like I said.





Tom
 
Let me put it to Desert Fox and others this way:



There have always been Unions. There will always be Unions. "Union" means to pull resources together. Usually to protect ones interests. Thats all we are doing. If you do not, then complete exploitation will occur.



Even in the time of the Pharaohs, thousands of years before Christ, there were Unions. Yep!



The pyramids were built by very skilled brick masons, and lots of slaves. The Brick masons were spared the whip, and were treated with a certain amount of reverence. The Pharaoh, of course, had not the skills or knowledge to put the stones in the proper place. Therefore could not completely dominate the masons, so they were in essence "middle class".



Pretty cool how that works out doesnt it??



All we do is to "protect the crafts" and the middle class.



Work Union/Live better!
 
Do you think for one minute the workplace would worsen or improve without the threat of a work stoppage or a strike? The threat of punishment, and loss of money straightens out a lot of problems. No better motivator than money. Right? Yep.
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Frank, when you strike who pays your wage ???
 
"Union" means to pull resources together. Usually to protect ones interests. Thats all we are doing. If you do not, then complete exploitation will occur.
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Where did that quote come from....some Union handbook?? So, by 'protecting your intrests' what about the interest of the customer wanting his project completed ontime while yall are out walking some picket line and nothing is getting done. ? What about the customers interest while he is paying your wages. ? Sounds like all for the union and to hell with everyone else is their attitude.



I can only condem the union workers who are contracted to work airports since I had to deal with them for over 15 years. Some were ok and we could work along side of eachother and get the job done, but most were too busy reading their script from their union booklets everytime some issue they didn't like came up. On a few jobs, it got so bad that we ended up firing the entire crew and sent them packing back to the union hall and brought in our own people to get the job done. Of course, this was signed and agreed by the customer.



 
Here is another union story for you.



Philadelphia is still a strong union town. The plumber's union in particular is very strong. When Comcast submitted plans for its new state-of-the-art Comcast center it included new, "no-flush" urinals. These urinals have no water in them. Installing them instead of traditional urinals means a LOT less work for plumbers.



The city's plumbers union boycotted. They wouldn't "sign off" on the building as planned. They extorted Comcast by stalling the start of construction, which couldn't start without union folks, and wouldn't start until some concessions were made for all the work/money that was avoided by these new urinals.



Comcast's back was broken by the unions, they conceded, and the concession was to include in the plans plumbing for all the urinals, just as if they were regular "water run" urinals, but for the water line to be capped off in the wall next to each urinal. In other words, the union extorted that Comcast pay them for labor and materials for extra work that was NOT needed and could not be used.



So, yeah, unions help their members...but Comcast is a great company to work for, and provides a lot of jobs. They didn't deserve, nor did their customers deserve to be exploited in this way.



TJR
 
Just have to add my two cents on this topic, I am a highly skilled master electrician that works for a non union shop i make as much money "on paper" as a union shop without having to pay union dues hence i keep all of my paycheck as far as benefits go we have the same retirement,insurance,etc as the owners of the company does. After all its his family and his retirement so why woudlnt he want the best for himself and his employees? imho it comes down to who you work for yes you need a union if you boss doesnt care about you and would try to shortchange you every chance he has to better his own checking account. but not all owners are the same ! Take car of the customer, take care of your employees and the rest takes care of itself!





live better/work union my ass!
 
Just one more thing to add there frank! couldnt resist another post ! Look what the union did for gm! thousands will be out of work! live better i doubt it!
 
If I give TJR a non-union story, he calls it FUD.



TJR, please quit telling tall tales. Didn't your mommy teach you better than that? I am sure I could bring up the past where working Non-union I was REQUIRED to be out of the country for my 10 year high school reunion or I missed my best friends funeral. There was nothing I could do about it.



Of course, you are going to call it FUD like you always do and dismiss it as a tall tale. No worries. I do not have to prove anything to you. I know what it is like and I am wearing my hip boots.



Keep the stories coming.





Tom
 
While doin a job in Miami, I had 4 electricians and we needed them to connect 8 wires between two MCP's.....the wires were already pulled, they just needed to land them. I gave them a sketch on which wire went where........a 45 min job tops.....it took them over a day to complete the connections. I could have done it myself, but due to "union rules", I wasn't allowed in the panels.
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My conveyor company sells flexible and rigid conveyors all over the country. I am the lead electrical and controls engineer. We had a customer that bought 22 flexible conveyors to be installed outside of Pontiac, MI at a new USPS distribution center. The DC was still under construction (and running 6 months late). Every construction, electrical, plumbing job was under Union contract. I was sent to the facility to change out some parts on the control system because the customer sent us the wrong specification. I had the parts and my tool chest. When I arrived on-site and unloaded my tools, I was promptly informed that my tools must remain in my car unless I had a BEW union card. Nope.



The job should have taken me about 12 hours to change out the controls on all 22 units. Instead, I had to supervise (4) union people to change out the parts. There were (2) BEW people, a mechanical union worker and a foreman. The electricians and the mechanical guys had a 30 minute discussion on to who was responsible for removeing the THE TWO BOLTS (1/4-20's) that held the photoeye tray in place. Then they had another 45 minute discussion on to who was going to remove the (4) #6 screws that hold the cover on the electrical box. Then it was break time.



So, what I could have done ALONE in 45-60 minutes start to finish per unit, has now taken more than 2 hours (including the break) just to figure out who was going to do what.



During the disassembly process, a bolt was dropped and it stopped literally against my shoe. When I bent down to pick it up, I heard a throat clearing, looked up and the foreman was shaking his head.



Great.



Then only thing that I did all day (besides watching the group turn a bolt and answering questions) was use a vice-grip to turn a part to line it up for removal. This was after everyone present agreed to it.



After changing out the parts we needed to change, there was again a discussion on who was going to reassemble the parts that needed to be removed for the installation.



While all the people were freindly and willing to listen and learn, by the end of the 8 hour day, (1) unit was ALMOST done....



Needless to say I left the facility with a "new respect" for union ineffiency.
 
J.Vocaty said:
I am a highly skilled master electrician that works for a non union shop i make as much money "on paper" as a union shop without having to pay union dues hence i keep all of my paycheck as far as benefits go we have the same retirement,insurance,etc as the owners of the company does.
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You aren't the kind of guys the unions want. I submit they want the middle to lower end of the curve, in intelligence, capability, and ambition, because it is those people that need the protection that collusion brings and it is those people that THEY can exploit for their purposes.



Union members like to say that unions make the playing field level, and fair for all.



The really good workers, the "super stars" don't want a level playing field (you know what I mean), because I level playing field cripples them.



TJR
 
Caymen said:
Keep the stories coming.
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I don't have to. Others are doing it for me. See above. They seem all true to me. No tall tales.



But as long as you are characterizing, I submit that the so-called good that unions do, the so-called need that unions provide is FOLKLORE...meaning that it probably once was true, and probably once happened, but it was a long, long time ago in a much different world than we have today.



Some people like to hold onto the past. Others like to exploit change. Which is living a more productive existence?



TJR
 
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Wow, this thread has gone off on a completely different track from the original topic. However, after watching the market last week, I still stand by my statement that the laws of supply and demand do work.



On another note, I do agree that at one time, unions did serve a useful purpose in protecting the interests of their members. But they've gotten way out of hand in modern times. Case in point: I work at a university (in an Academic Professional, non-union position). I've been here for about four months, and am in the process of decorating/personalizing my office. However, if I want a picture hung, or want to even re-arrange the furniture I was in no way instructed to do it myself. I have to submit a facilities maintenance request for a union facilities worker to come up and do it. And it could take up to a week for that to happen, when I could have it done in five minutes!:blink:



Here another story illustrating this kind of absurdity:



Montreal shopkeepers told to put brooms away



Bylaw Dispute; Sweeping city sidewalks a job for unionized staff



by Graeme Hamilton, National Post

Published: Saturday, July 19, 2008



MONTREAL - A bylaw adopted last year obliging shopkeepers and apartment owners in downtown Montreal to sweep in front of their properties has spruced up the city. Fewer cigarette butts and fast-food wrappers litter the sidewalks, and garbage bags are no longer left out for days before the trucks pass.



But acting on a complaint from the union representing Montreal's blue-collar employees, a labour arbitrator has ruled that the bylaw violates the city's collective agreement with its workers. Sidewalkcleaning is the exclusive domain of the blue-collars, arbitrator Andre Rousseau concluded, and the city has no business enlisting "volunteers" to do the work.



The decision effectively means that city sidewalks and streets are a closed union shop, so anyone taking a broom in hand had better watch out.



The blue-collars are notoriously jealous of their turf.



In 2003, workers waged a campaign of intimidation against private contractors who had been hired by the city for such jobs as cutting grass and repairing sidewalks.



Jean-Yves Hinse, Montreal's director of professional relations, said the city will appeal the ruling to Quebec Superior Court.



"If it is interpreted broadly, not a minute goes by that we are not breaking the collective agreement," Mr. Hinse said. "Someone is picking up some paper, someone is sweeping his balcony."



Mr. Hinse also worried that the ruling undermines efforts to foster a sense of civic responsibility in Montrealers.



"We don't want Montreal to become a dump," he said.



"Everyone has their responsibilities. We want citizens to have the responsibility of keeping their surroundings clean and safe. It's an appeal to their civic virtues."



The cleanliness bylaw was introduced in 2007 after city officials despaired that Montreal was becoming overrun with garbage. Fines range from $125 to $2,000 for individuals, depending on the seriousness of the offence. Companies can be fined up to $4,000.



Benoit Labonte, Mayor of the downtown borough of Ville-Marie, boasted last month that 2,700 tickets had been issued in the first year of the bylaw's application, with fines totalling more than $1-million.



"I congratulate all citizens, because during the past year we have seen a clear improvement in the cleanliness of the borough," he said.



But the bylaw had been in force less than a month when Michel Parent, president of the blue-collar union, filed a grievance complaining the city was assigning blue-collar work to "volunteers or non-profit groups," which is not permitted under the collective agreement.



The city countered that it was simply imposing duties on property owners, who are not volunteers in t
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TrainTrac,



You statement that the law of supply and demand works, though echoed by the market of late, makes me feel a little sore in the arse.



When crude shoots up $10 a barrel in a day, gas at the pump goes up 20¢. When the price of crude drops $16 a barrel in a day (as it did last week) fuel at the pump goes done 1¢.



Someone else here said that those that control the market and sell the gas have us figured out. The raise and they raise, until we can't take it anymore and our consumption drops then they back off, and let the price settle back a little (maybe they raise $1 over a year, but then drop back 20¢ or 30¢), and when they do, we all feel REALLY GOOD and start buying again.



I think "human factors" (like emotion, speculation, price memory) has more to do with the pricing then more concrete market factors like supply and demand.



TJR
 

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