What's wrong with Unions

[Kevin Palmer]

I am a believer that some years ago Unions were critical, so much so that they were vital to America.



That said, times have changed and there is so much out-sourcing and things to that nature that their importance has dwindled.



Many laws and regulations have come about because of Unions, they are now in place. Sooo, use what was learned or is in place and drive on.



At least for now, we cannot afford most unions in regards as to how the operate and create certain situations.



As an example, where my wife worked a man stole money out of the cash drawer, he was caught on camera. They could not fire him. He gets two more chances before they can then go to the union to get permission to fire him.



Now that is simply wrong...

 

[gary s]

coastie,



tom is going to prove you wrong :lol:

 

[Bill Barber]

unions as Coastie said were at one time critical, look at the child labor laws in the early 1900s. unions actually saved lives.

today we have OSHA,(not that I am a fan of OSHA) we have minimum wage laws, all on a federal leval.

we do not need unions anymore, they serve no one except union members, all they do is inflate consumer costs due to union fees and union demands.

I got a call the other night about 10 PM from an old gal, she was worried that her toilet would not stop running, told her jiggle the handle, she do's, all is well, will stop by about noon and fix the problem.

so I go over, shes at least 90, she called a plumber that morning, A union plumber

he did the deed, new flapper, charged her 275 bux,she said she also has a two yr warranty on the parts and labor.

I would have done the job for 40 bux (non union) and being that she was at least 90 years old, a 50 year warrany.:wacko:

 

[gary s]

bill,



please learn you lesson, tom will prove you wrong as well!!!

 

[Bill Barber]

Tom Who?

 

[Tom Schindler]

Tom, don't forget that Mazda has UAW also.

Gavin, you are correct but Mazda is essentially Ford.

As an example, where my wife worked a man stole money out of the cash drawer, he was caught on camera. They could not fire him. He gets two more chances before they can then go to the union to get permission to fire him.

I am a foreman in a union shop. I do not need the unions permission to fire someone. You get busted stealing something from the company or another employee, you are fired. You miss 4 days without an excuse (doctor, for example is an excuse) and you are fired. There is nothing the union can say about it.



Extreme examples like this are what everyone talks about. I really wonder how many are made to be more than they really are.



IMO, unions are like having a police force. As long as there is a police force, the majority will obey the law. If the police are no more, only a minority will follow the law.



As long as the treat is there, companies WILL treat their employees well. Once the threat is no more, there is no reason to do so.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen said:

IMO, unions are like having a police force. As long as there is a police force, the majority will obey the law. If the police are no more, only a minority will follow the law.

And that, my friend, is why you and I disagree on the importance of unions.



Let me explain.



You feel that most people (or companies) generally need an enforcement/oversight group in place in order to "do the right thing".



That is the general belief you seem to have, and it is clearly a pessimistic way of thinking.



I think just the opposite. I feel that most people (and therefore companies) are inheriently good and will typically do the right thing on their own. I further believe that for the minority that do the wrong thing the "system" (capitalism, free trade, karma) works out the punishment.



TJR

 

[Les]

IMO, unions are like having a police force. As long as there is a police force, the majority will obey the law. If the police are no more, only a minority will follow the law.



As long as the treat is there, companies WILL treat their employees well. Once the threat is no more, there is no reason to do so.

Caymen, you need to come out into the real world occasionally...

 

[Tom Schindler]

Caymen, you need to come out into the real world occasionally...

I guess we can disagree on this one.



You really think that without the possibility of a union ever being voted in by the employees, any company, especially in this economic situation, will treat all employees fairly, with respect and dignity?



I find that REALLY hard to believe. I have been there. I have worked 40 hours straight through. I have put in 120+ hours in 7 days. I working in the NDT field for 9 years. I have been in hundreds upon hundreds of work locations from Maine to Mississippi. From Virginia to Kansas. I have worked in Germany.



I have seen some real scumbag companies out there. Employees treated like crap. Employees not given more then a 10 minute lunch. Employees required to be their workstations 10 minutes BEFORE the start of their shift so they can talk to the previous shift employee. This was unpaid time.





I guess my reality is different than yours. My experience was real. I have seen it. Of course, I am not sure how real your experience is, so please share yours. I would love to hear it.





Tom

 

[Dave S 2]

I think just the opposite. I feel that most people (and therefore companies) are inheriently good and will typically do the right thing on their own. I further believe that for the minority that do the wrong thing the "system" (capitalism, free trade, karma) works out the punishment.

My personal experiences within several large unionized companies, definately blows the reality of this type thinking out of the water.



Tom is correct in my experienced opinion!!!



Don't get me wrong, I'm not a staunch supporter of a lot of the present day union tactics, but more so anti large corporation so called ethical practices. Employees don't have faces, they are merely animals waiting on the glue factory. Yeah, that's what employees are more or less supposed to be but respect / recognition goes a long way toward increased productivity.



Abolish unions and see what happens to 8hr days & 40hr weeks!

Abolish unions and see what happens to breaks and lunches!

Abolish unions and see what happens to holiday's off!

Abolish unions and see what happens to vacation & sick time off!

Abolish unions and see what happens to medical benefits!

Abolish unions and see what happens to YOU when you are ill for an extended time!

Abolish unions and see what happens to being with your wife during the birth of your children!

Abolish unions and see what happens to time off when there is a death / illness in your family!

Abolish unions and see what happens to the best workers when their mngr has a simple personality conflict with them!



If you care to try and validate any of my points above, I can help narrow your research down with two words; WalMart and IBM - (2) of Americas "greatest" companies!!! But no, I have no personal experience with either of them, but the similarities to other companies I've worked for are strikingly "similar"!

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Dave S said:

Abolish unions and see what happens to 8hr days & 40hr weeks!

Abolish unions and see what happens to breaks and lunches!

Abolish unions and see what happens to holiday's off!

Abolish unions and see what happens to vacation & sick time off!

Abolish unions and see what happens to medical benefits!

Abolish unions and see what happens to YOU when you are ill for an extended time!

Abolish unions and see what happens to being with your wife during the birth of your children!

Abolish unions and see what happens to time off when there is a death / illness in your family!

Abolish unions and see what happens to the best workers when their mngr has a simple personality conflict with them!

I work in an industry (information technology) that for the most part has no unionization and I have enjoyed all those benefits described above, and more, for the past 25 years.



Actually, to be fair, the last item in the list is the one that hasn't been completely covered as a benefit. When I worked for IBM they had a formal "open door" policy, so if you had issue with your manager, you could always go to a higher-up, or a peer manager, or HR. But then again, I guess I've felt comfortable doing just that for all the companies I have worked. Furthermore, I feel that most personality conflicts are typically "two sided" (not just about "the boss"). Besides, one can always vote with their feet.





Caymen,



I'm not saying there aren't scumbag companies out there. I am sure there are, just like there are scumbag people. But just like choosing to not hang around with bad people, we can also choose who we work for. I submit that since it is a minority of companies that are scumbags and unfair in their labor practices that IF people would simply refuse to work for such companies the problems would solve themselves as the bad companies would either fold or have to change to attract employees (free, open market).



Who wants to work for a company that is run by people that without oversight would do the wrong thing? Not me! That's akin to having friends or hanging out with people that would rob or rape you if it weren't for the police presence (your analogy). I choose not to associate with such people.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Oh, and Caymen said:

You really think that without the possibility of a union ever being voted in by the employees, any company, especially in this economic situation, will treat all employees fairly, with respect and dignity?

Your question implies that you think there are no such companies. Of course there is at least one company out there that treats its employees fairly, with respect, and dignity, not because of the threat of a union, but just because it chooses to run itself in that manner. I am sure there are many such companies. I think most companies are such.



I mentioned IBM before. Unions have tried to get into IBM in the past, but have always been rode out on a rail. Why? Because there is no need...the employees already feel that they are treated fairly.



Of course, you can always say that IBM only treats people well to keep the unions out. But I guess we will never really know (chicken/egg). As an optimist, seeing the best in people and companies I do believe that there are companies that do good, and do the right thing because it is its own reward. Doing good, treating people right leads to prosperity and the prosperity is the carrot....they don't need a stick to force them to do the right thing.



Again, I'm not saying there aren't bad people and companies. I'm just saying that we can choose who we work for and associate with and that alone is threat enough for most to do the right thing.



Like I said before, once you work for a boss or a company for some amount of time you get a feel for the culture, their morality, their values; and you can sense if that company (or boss) is doing the right thing because they WANT to or because they HAVE to. Who in their right mind would want to work for an employer or a boss that otherwise would NOT treat them fairly or conduct business in an ethical manner? Again, NOT ME!



TJR

 

[Les]

I guess my reality is different than yours. My experience was real. I have seen it. Of course, I am not sure how real your experience is, so please share yours. I would love to hear it.

Caymen, was a union member for several years, I was self-employed for over 20 years, and now I work for a publically held company. I was also in the military. I would say I have plenty of experience in several areas.

You really think that without the possibility of a union ever being voted in by the employees, any company, especially in this economic situation, will treat all employees fairly, with respect and dignity?

Yes I do...

Abolish unions and see what happens to 8hr days & 40hr weeks!

Abolish unions and see what happens to breaks and lunches!

Abolish unions and see what happens to holiday's off!

Abolish unions and see what happens to vacation & sick time off!

Abolish unions and see what happens to medical benefits!

Abolish unions and see what happens to YOU when you are ill for an extended time!

Abolish unions and see what happens to being with your wife during the birth of your children!

Abolish unions and see what happens to time off when there is a death / illness in your family!

Abolish unions and see what happens to the best workers when their mngr has a simple personality conflict with them!

The company I work for is non-union and it is a field that will never be union. I have all of these benefits and more.

 

[Kevin Palmer]

Tom,

I will be the very first to admit I do not know the "politics" behind todays Unions.



In the case of the guy that stole the money, it really did go down as I described it. They fired him, the union literally came to the office the next day and the guy had his job back, with 2 days back pay, and 2 more chances to do something wrong.



Maybe this is an extreme case, but it is a true case.



As I said, I do believe in the foundation of Unions, it is when they literally allow theft of money, hours, product ect ect when I have a VERY hard time swallowing their methodology..

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

DaveS Says it all. If you dont see the cycles and trends of labor, and the companies getting BIGGER, then you have a pre-disposition to be anti-union. Your mind is closed and no matter what reality is bestowed upon you, you are a Union-basher.



Sure Unions have had problems, greed, and troublemakers, but every facet of the workplace has. Corporate greed is at all time high levels. Wall Street is greedy. The Politicians create favorable conditions for thier friends' (and former) companies to reap huge profits, and become monsterous. Thier constituants are the people. You and me. THATS who the markets need to work for.



Price fixing, gouging, and down right predatory lending practices are to blame also. The consumer is like a fish in an ever smaller-growing pond. Bieng fished into poverty by the lawyers who work for the greedy corporate boards of directors. Finding loopholes to squeeze an extra penny out of the workers' so the CEO can make 350 Million instead of 349. Pathetic.



The stimulus should have been started from the bottom up. Most of the stimulus money that went to the banks has been "Banked" Tricke down economics is a farce. Those greedy jerks arent going to stick thier necks out and put that money back into the economy and risk it. They learned thier' lessons. The real question is ??? Have we. The people who support an anti-Union stance are enablers to the upper class. They are corporate suck offs, that have no clue about putting in an honest days work.



Well most of them are. I imagine there are exceptions. When the economy starts rolling at a level that the fat-cats start investing again, there are going to be infastructure projects (bridges, roads, etc) that are immense. Are the non-Union (unskilled) work forces that some on this thread talk about, going to work on them?? I dont friggin think so! When the chips are down, (and believe me they are) the Unions will rebuild Americas backbone, (again) and make sure it is strong and proud again. Work Union and live better people. It is your ONLY way to achieve middle class if you actually want to WORK for a living. We have been the middle class since the pyramids. And will be when they fall.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Frank,



Frankly (pun) most of your post comes off as class envy.



I'm no union basher, I just question the value of unions in today's world. I am open minded in doing so. I just haven't seen the necessity for unions in most companies and jobs today.



It seems more often than not whenever people talk about why unions are needed, or what they have done, they speak either of the past, or the hypothetical future. Neither of which, I'm sorry, convinces me.



You said:

DaveS Says it all. If you dont see the cycles and trends of labor, and the companies getting BIGGER, then you have a pre-disposition to be anti-union. Your mind is closed and no matter what reality is bestowed upon you, you are a Union-basher.

I see the trends.



I see some companies become bigger, say for example WalMart.



I also see our government and our president giving bailout monies to the wrong people and at the wrong levels.



Also, I see the ever growing size of government, and last I check, the government was still the largest employer, even larger than WalMart (when one compares both public, private and governmental employ).



So, yeah, I see the trends. I see government getting too big, and only bigger under the current administration. I see some larger companies getting larger and often being unfairly beat on by our government (WalMart, Microsoft, etc).



But I see hope too. I see promise. The promise is that this is still the BEST country in the world for small, private business. Likewise it is actually the small, private business that is the life-blood of this country and our economy. For me, I see little value in unions for such small companies...but then, I guess that's just me.



There is a lot that is wrong with large corporations today, but let's NOT kid ourselves that unions can solve these problems. The greedy fat-cats have only gotten greedier, and fatter all under the watch of unions; and unions have only gotten weaker and weaker during that same time.



Like I said, most of your post comes off as "class envy", and for that reason alone you are like the pot calling the kettle black when you state that others who are critical of unions are "close-minded."



TJR

 

[Dave S 2]

TJR:

Actually, to be fair, the last item in the list is the one that hasn't been completely covered as a benefit. When I worked for IBM they had a formal "open door" policy, so if you had issue with your manager, you could always go to a higher-up, or a peer manager, or HR.



I have worked for companies that had the same "open door" policy. And I have taken advantage of that opportunity a few times in the past. BUT, Shortly (1 or 2 days) after doing so, my 1st line manager has been called to the carpetbecause of me (every time)! Guess what happens after that?



They are acused of being a "bad" manager because if they were a "good" manager, I would have never needed to grace that "open door" threshold! Now to prove that my 1st level IS a "good" manager and tho save thier job, I'm now that bad guy!!!



TJR:But then again, I guess I've felt comfortable doing just that for all the companies I have worked.



Know why I felt comfortable doing so? Because I knew I had union backing that would NOT allow that percieved "bad" manager to put me (the problem) out the door so he could look "good" once again



TJR:Furthermore, I feel that most personality conflicts are typically "two sided" (not just about "the boss")

Correct but, if I (or anyone else) dared to use the open door policy, it was pretty much (1) sided.



TJR: Besides, one can always vote with their feet



You are absolutely correct on that TJR! Unless one has been @ their employment long enough to have been vested in retirement or are within days, weeks, month of having their first child or having health issues requiring medical insurance, recession time or.......



But I digree, because this is like politics (Hell it is politics) and there is no right of wrong. Nor is there an end to the debate!!!!!!!!

 

[Dave S 2]

nm

 

[Dave S 2]

But I see hope too. I see promise. The promise is that this is still the BEST country in the world for small, private business. Likewise it is actually the small, private business that is the life-blood of this country and our economy. For me, I see little value in unions for such small companies...but then, I guess that's just me.

Not just you TJR. Because this statement of yours, I am in total agreement with!!!

Unions would do NOTHING but harm to these stated companies!!!

 

[Tom Schindler]

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