Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
JohnnyO, then don't think about it as trying to prevent drunk driving. Instead, see it as upholding the "public intoxication" laws.
Is that better?
Is that better?
Texas arresting people in bars for being drunk
- Thread starter Dale Carlson
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Nelson,
There are no assumptions made! The guys are drunk in public, which is illegal in Texas and most other states, and that is what they are being arrested for.
It makes no difference if they are walking, riding, skipping or doing the moonwalk.
grumpy,
You statement is probably true that any privately owned bar cannot be considered a public place. Perhaps the police make the arrest when the drunken individual steps out of the bar into publick view.
Some states have very strange and bizzare laws regarding drinking and open container laws like in Kansas. Most counties are dry, and the few that allow the sale of alcohol restrict it to private clubs. While I was stationed there, they had an open container law that stated you could not consume an alcoholic beverage anywhere in public. That meant you could not sit in your backyard and have a beer, or allow your friends to drink beer if you did not have a privacy fence that blocked the view of your neighbors. I think that is a really crazy law.
...Rich
There are no assumptions made! The guys are drunk in public, which is illegal in Texas and most other states, and that is what they are being arrested for.
It makes no difference if they are walking, riding, skipping or doing the moonwalk.
grumpy,
You statement is probably true that any privately owned bar cannot be considered a public place. Perhaps the police make the arrest when the drunken individual steps out of the bar into publick view.
Some states have very strange and bizzare laws regarding drinking and open container laws like in Kansas. Most counties are dry, and the few that allow the sale of alcohol restrict it to private clubs. While I was stationed there, they had an open container law that stated you could not consume an alcoholic beverage anywhere in public. That meant you could not sit in your backyard and have a beer, or allow your friends to drink beer if you did not have a privacy fence that blocked the view of your neighbors. I think that is a really crazy law.
...Rich
Bill V
Well-Known Member
As a result of this story, out-of-state applications to colleges in Texas have dropped off over 40%... 
On the serious side--what is their definition of "public intoxication" for the purpose of this sting? Is it the .08% (or whatever amount Texas has) that is used to determine if you're too drunk to drive? If so, then yes, I need to question what they're doing, as being too intoxicated to drive doesn't necessarily mean one is too intoxicated to walk home, or to call a cab. At .09%, one is too drunk to drive, but not too drunk to act responsibly by choosing not to drive. And that should not be grounds for arrest.
On the serious side--what is their definition of "public intoxication" for the purpose of this sting? Is it the .08% (or whatever amount Texas has) that is used to determine if you're too drunk to drive? If so, then yes, I need to question what they're doing, as being too intoxicated to drive doesn't necessarily mean one is too intoxicated to walk home, or to call a cab. At .09%, one is too drunk to drive, but not too drunk to act responsibly by choosing not to drive. And that should not be grounds for arrest.
Bill I don't know if they are using the .08 limit or not? But if they did it may not be too out of line since someone too drunk to drive may still be a menace to traffic as a pedestrian, since he/she may cross the street against the light, or jaywalk, and even set themselves up for a mugging, etc.
Perhaps the drunks they are arresting are physically stagering and unable to pass a field sobriety test?? The .08 evidence may be the legal definition for DWI by alcohol, but you can still be charged with DWI if you had been takin drugs and appeared intoxicated but your blood alcohol was 0.00. So I don't think the .08 limit applies to public drunkeness, since some people will stager after a single beer and the blood aclohol is still below the limit.
...Rich
Perhaps the drunks they are arresting are physically stagering and unable to pass a field sobriety test?? The .08 evidence may be the legal definition for DWI by alcohol, but you can still be charged with DWI if you had been takin drugs and appeared intoxicated but your blood alcohol was 0.00. So I don't think the .08 limit applies to public drunkeness, since some people will stager after a single beer and the blood aclohol is still below the limit.
...Rich
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V, you once again are confusing what the person MIGHT do when leaving the bar, with the fact that "public intoxication", in many states, is a crime. The "side effect" of enforcing that law is that drunk driving SHOULD decrease...as probably would domestic abuse crimes, etc.
Mark Grumpy
Well-Known Member
TJR,
I see your point but disagree. My mother owns a bar, in Texas. On the exterior it states the establishment has the right to refuse service to anyone. It also states the establishment has the right to refuse entry to anyone. In my book, that makes it no different than my house, you only come in if I allow it. That makes it private.
I agree that if a person is fall down drunk and has keys in their hand, then maybe they should be "detained" for a while. I'm not so sure they should be arrested. I see nothing wrong with detaining them for a "sobering up" period.
Like Bill said, what is used to determine "public drunkeness"? I don't know.
Scenario - Me and my wife, who doesn't drink, are in my mothers bar. I've had a few beers, over the legal driving limit (which is .08 in TX) and my keys are on the table. I'm sitting having a quiet convo with the wife, minding our own business, but remember I've had 5 or 6 beers. TABC agent spots my beer, spots my keys and arrests me. What is wrong with that? Wifey was my DD, she always is.
We don't have the entire story, the guidelines, I'm sure so the brief story up top may not be the entire story. I suspect the agents would have to have a certain "smokin' gun" type scenario rather than arbitrary discretion.
And on the backyard barbecue - if I choose to give my kids alcoholic bevvies then, in TX, I can. So long as it is provided by and under the supervision of parent or legal guardian it is legal to serve minors. Even in a bar. Parent orders the drink, waitress/waiter serves it to the parent and the parent can hand it off to the kid. The establishment did not serve the minor, the parent did.
grump
I see your point but disagree. My mother owns a bar, in Texas. On the exterior it states the establishment has the right to refuse service to anyone. It also states the establishment has the right to refuse entry to anyone. In my book, that makes it no different than my house, you only come in if I allow it. That makes it private.
I agree that if a person is fall down drunk and has keys in their hand, then maybe they should be "detained" for a while. I'm not so sure they should be arrested. I see nothing wrong with detaining them for a "sobering up" period.
Like Bill said, what is used to determine "public drunkeness"? I don't know.
Scenario - Me and my wife, who doesn't drink, are in my mothers bar. I've had a few beers, over the legal driving limit (which is .08 in TX) and my keys are on the table. I'm sitting having a quiet convo with the wife, minding our own business, but remember I've had 5 or 6 beers. TABC agent spots my beer, spots my keys and arrests me. What is wrong with that? Wifey was my DD, she always is.
We don't have the entire story, the guidelines, I'm sure so the brief story up top may not be the entire story. I suspect the agents would have to have a certain "smokin' gun" type scenario rather than arbitrary discretion.
And on the backyard barbecue - if I choose to give my kids alcoholic bevvies then, in TX, I can. So long as it is provided by and under the supervision of parent or legal guardian it is legal to serve minors. Even in a bar. Parent orders the drink, waitress/waiter serves it to the parent and the parent can hand it off to the kid. The establishment did not serve the minor, the parent did.
grump
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Grumpy,
That's what's great about opinions. We all have them.
Do people KNOCK on the door to your Mom's bar? Do they ask for entrance? Or do they just walk in and sit down at the bar? If it is NO DIFFERENT than her home, I would expect they must do that?
Or, do you have hours posted for the public on your house, and the door unlocked during that time, and allow anyone to come in and sit down in your house, and ONLY THEN, if you don't wish them in, ask them to leave?
The bar is open to the public, with a caveat by the owner that they reserve the right to ask people to leave. That reservation doesn't make the operation any less of a public entity. You don't need a liquor license at home, or have to abide by state and local regulations regarding serving people (hours, amounts, cleanliness, max occupants, etc), but you need all those things in the bar setting to protect the public.
Texas, frankly sounds refreshing and scary at the same time.
A minor drinking in a bar or restaurant in just about any other state is illegal, and the restaurant/bar owners can be held responsible, regardless how the minor was served. BTW, that's a GOOD THING, IMHO!
TJR
That's what's great about opinions. We all have them.
Do people KNOCK on the door to your Mom's bar? Do they ask for entrance? Or do they just walk in and sit down at the bar? If it is NO DIFFERENT than her home, I would expect they must do that?
Or, do you have hours posted for the public on your house, and the door unlocked during that time, and allow anyone to come in and sit down in your house, and ONLY THEN, if you don't wish them in, ask them to leave?
The bar is open to the public, with a caveat by the owner that they reserve the right to ask people to leave. That reservation doesn't make the operation any less of a public entity. You don't need a liquor license at home, or have to abide by state and local regulations regarding serving people (hours, amounts, cleanliness, max occupants, etc), but you need all those things in the bar setting to protect the public.
Texas, frankly sounds refreshing and scary at the same time.
A minor drinking in a bar or restaurant in just about any other state is illegal, and the restaurant/bar owners can be held responsible, regardless how the minor was served. BTW, that's a GOOD THING, IMHO!
TJR
Stephane Bolduc
Active Member
I see an easy way out of this one. You convert the bar into a "private" bar; where people have to pay 1 penny to become a member. This way; it wouldn't be "Public dunkenness".
Fudged Undies
Well-Known Member
Since no assumptions are being made the undercover agents are giving breathalyzer tests to confirm blood alcohol levels are above legal limits. Assuming BAL determine drunkeness, this would determine beng legally drunk wouldn't it?
Bill Ellis
Well-Known Member
Hey, nobody seemed to care when they started banning smoking in public and in bars across the nation. They are just moving on to the next thing. It won't be the last thing either. Get used to it. Those who backed the smoking laws have asked for it.....now they are getting it.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
TJR, I wasn't confusing them. I was merely asking if the .08% DUI standard is also the same standard defining "public intoxication". And I then added that if it is, I feel it's too stringent of a requirement, as being too intoxicated to perform some activities (for example, driving) does not necessarily mean that you are too intoxicated to perform others (for example, hailing a cab for a ride home). In my opinion, being "under the influence" while driving, and being "intoxicated" (publicly or otherwise) should be two significantly different threshholds.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V, thanks, I now understand.
I too wonder what the blood-alcohol limit would be for "public intoxication", and agree it should probably be higher than that defined as DUI.
TJR
I too wonder what the blood-alcohol limit would be for "public intoxication", and agree it should probably be higher than that defined as DUI.
TJR
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Steph, you just described a "speakeasy"; An established that illegally sells alcohol as it is illegal for a bar to sell to drunks.
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That is why a bar pays that big bucks to the state for a license to serve alcohol. To become a place that permits alcohol com sumption.
They did where I live. Summit County Ohio passed a smoking ban. Three of the largest cities in the county stood up and said our citizens do not want it, so the law doesn't apply to us. Last news atricle says the county is going to repeal the ban.
I am thinking of a word, a type of government that protects it's citizans by passing all kinds of laws. Where to work, what you can do for pleasure, etc. I just can't think of what it is called.
Tom
Mark Grumpy
Well-Known Member
TJR,
again, I see your points and arguments for public versus private. Quite frankly, on the "open door" and "come on in, sit down" arguments I have no rebuttal. And then I add Steph's comment to that maybe you've swayed me a little. :wacko: Steph's comment about charging a penny basically equates to VFWs and American Legions and such, where you have to be a member. Would we agree these are private?
I wonder if, because these establishments have to abide by the same rules, liquor liscenses and such, if the agents can go there too?
hhhmmmm :unsure:
grump
again, I see your points and arguments for public versus private. Quite frankly, on the "open door" and "come on in, sit down" arguments I have no rebuttal. And then I add Steph's comment to that maybe you've swayed me a little. :wacko: Steph's comment about charging a penny basically equates to VFWs and American Legions and such, where you have to be a member. Would we agree these are private?
I wonder if, because these establishments have to abide by the same rules, liquor liscenses and such, if the agents can go there too?
hhhmmmm :unsure:
grump
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree that American Legions, VFW halls, etc are private, and I think they should be exempt from such laws.
Do you know, by chance, if they require a liquor license?
Do you know, by chance, if they require a liquor license?
Bill Ellis
Well-Known Member
Private clubs have to have liquor a license same as public establishments. However, they are not considered "public places". So, cop just stands outside and wiats for them to leave, at which time they are now "in a public place".
TJR,
What Steph described is not a "Speakeasy". Many states like Kansas and some counties/cities/towns in Texas only allow alcohol by the drink to be served in a private club. I have been in several public resturants that require you to purchase a memberhship card to to be served an alcoholic drink. The membership is usually only a dollar or two and they usually give you a free drink as part of being a member. In fact, the local Logans Roadhouse resturant that just opened found out afterwards that their resturant was built in Waco, but was built in a suburb call Robinson which is a dry town, and requires alcohol served by the drink to be restricted to private clubs, so Logan's had to start a private club.
I paid $20 for the membership card and was given 4 tickets for dinner at their grand opening, and eat meal would easily sell for $25-$30.
I know it sounds like a silly way to limit the alcohol sales, but many towns do that because they cannot re-enact prohabition again, so the slim disguise of a private club works and is perfectly legal. So they are not Speakeasies, they are just private clubs that are open to the public after paying a small fee.
...Rich
What Steph described is not a "Speakeasy". Many states like Kansas and some counties/cities/towns in Texas only allow alcohol by the drink to be served in a private club. I have been in several public resturants that require you to purchase a memberhship card to to be served an alcoholic drink. The membership is usually only a dollar or two and they usually give you a free drink as part of being a member. In fact, the local Logans Roadhouse resturant that just opened found out afterwards that their resturant was built in Waco, but was built in a suburb call Robinson which is a dry town, and requires alcohol served by the drink to be restricted to private clubs, so Logan's had to start a private club.
I paid $20 for the membership card and was given 4 tickets for dinner at their grand opening, and eat meal would easily sell for $25-$30.
I know it sounds like a silly way to limit the alcohol sales, but many towns do that because they cannot re-enact prohabition again, so the slim disguise of a private club works and is perfectly legal. So they are not Speakeasies, they are just private clubs that are open to the public after paying a small fee.
...Rich
Gerald Pierce
Well-Known Member
Next, they'll get you coming out of the package store with an unopened bottle... we all know you are going to drink it and possibly get drunk.
Caymen said
I know a word that descibes it but it is not polite to say in mixed company
We need to remember that in today's day and age many people enjoy to place the blame on everyone else for their own stupidity and as a result they sue over things like getting drunk at a work sponsered party and driving home without the common sense to take a cab and killing someone. They sue their work on the premise that if they weren't given the free drinks and weren't stopped by the organizers of the party from driving home drunk that they never would have driven home. This mentality sickens me especially when commit stupid acts and cannot accept the fact that they do not know right for wrong and place the blame on someone else.
The Texas police's intent is to arrest drunks before they are even given the chance of doing something stupid once they leave the bar like driving impaired or getting hit by a car stumbling in the street or getting in a fight. According to the law a public place is anywhere that is not considered a private residence or somewhere where people do not live and it is very common in my area for people to be arrested in bars for drunk in public.
I know from first hand that people sue police departments and drinking establishments all the time because my work place has three civil suits on the go as we speak because of what I mentioned above.
There is no reason for the Texas police to have undercover officers making the arrests though.
The Texas police's intent is to arrest drunks before they are even given the chance of doing something stupid once they leave the bar like driving impaired or getting hit by a car stumbling in the street or getting in a fight. According to the law a public place is anywhere that is not considered a private residence or somewhere where people do not live and it is very common in my area for people to be arrested in bars for drunk in public.
I know from first hand that people sue police departments and drinking establishments all the time because my work place has three civil suits on the go as we speak because of what I mentioned above.
There is no reason for the Texas police to have undercover officers making the arrests though.
