Stanely "Tookie" Williams

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:lol: I'm with you Krash



Nelson, I think comparing the punishment of rapist and murderers to the holocaust is streaching it a bit.
 
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I find that really nobody has to open a can of worms...some you guys make your own worms..:lol::wacko:
 
The death penalty is not, nor was it ever intended to deter crime. It is punishment. Plan and simple. I am certain Tookie is deterred from killing anyone else, like guards and other inmates.



The right wings stand on abortion and capital punishment are not contradictory. Aborted babies are innocent victims, while death row executions are earned by the vicious acts a person commits to forfetit their right to live among the rest of us.



Yes, there are some examples of people being executed for a crime they did not commit. I wonder how many of them committed other crimes wth which they were not charged? Crime stas tell us that every convict averaged four felonies for each one for which they were convicted.



Some say DNA evidence proves why we should not execute, I say that it should accelerate executions by definitively tying the perpetrator to the crime.
 
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NesonOKC - The Biblical refernece of judge not, lest ye be judges refers to damnation, man's soul and the enforciment of God's law. Related to that, "judgement is Mine, thus sayeth the Lord". Same context, same law.



The OT and NT are very clear on obeying and enforcing the law of man, which is the judgement rendered on Tookie. Now he gets to experience the OTHER enforcement action pending against him.



I don't like his odds.

 
Most incarcerated individuals are not a threat to the general populace. There really is no reason that they should be clogging up our prisons. They do not need the intensive observations and high security enclosures. The Death penalty IS a deterent. The same person doesn't do it again. I believe in Capital punishment but only when the evidence is non contovertial. Eliminating capital punishment gives a carte blanc to inmates serving life sentences. What are you going to do, double their sentence? The reason it is usually is cheaper not to envoke the death penalties is the unexhaustable appeals that the convicted person has. I say that he should get three appeals, over a max of five years. If he can't prove that he was wrongly accused in that time, then probably he will never. Yes, past convictions have been overtunned due to new DNA techniques that were not available then. Many blacks were convicted based on prejudicial witnesses. Prisons are too cozy. Let's see Basketball, weight lifting, free medical, free legal services even if it is NOT associated with their defense



For minor crimes, canning is fair across all races and economic status. It hurts no matter how rich you are. I'll stop rambling now.
 
Scott SImon - I asked the same question a few years ago. The "costs" that anti-death penalty advocates spout include the cost of housing and defending the convict through endless appeals on Death Row. For Tookie, that was over 25 years. Life without offers fewer appeals and lower "cost". In our zeal to prevent wrongful execution, we offer near limitless appeals.



So which is cheaper, killing an obviously guilty man after two or three years of appeals or housing his worthless ass (and paying for appeals) for life? That is an obvious answer, don't you think?



BTW, for all of you "wrongfully executed" fans out there, can you tell me how many have been wrongfully executed? That were totally innocent, not just of that crime, but for any capital offense? I want a number. I bet it is VERY low becasue it is so hard to get a death sentence in the first place. Can you name even one?
 
MikeC - you forgot "All the free sex you want, or don't want, depending on circumstances" HAHAHAHAHAHA



I get your point, we should bring back hard labor and prison industry.
 
dale, if I wrongfully cause damage to you or your property, you can sue me and collect damages. How come we can't get money out of these creeps for the damage they cause. Yup, many are broke, but not all. They should be billed and money can go to the victims or the state. There should be "NO FREE LUNCH", especially in prison.



Going on a tangent for a second, if these creeps are so tentifully observed, how can all this sex be going on without the authorities seeing it. If they see it, why don't they stop it. Something is terribly wrong. What am I missing here?
 
If you take a life.....or FOUR....by choice....on purpose....the state in which you commited that act in should take yours......
 
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MikeC, I agree with the "no free lunch" stuff. I also agree with taking all the other stuff from them. Most repeat offenders are the one's that don't have that good a life outside and need to get back in prison before the next season of Sapranos starts on HBO. Doesn't really matter what you do, it will not change the fact that the "easy" money is in crime and as long as Drugs are "easy money" there will always be crime, murder, and robbery. As for the "extracurricular" activities thay do to each other while in there, who cares if some murderer ends up a big dudes B**ch.;)
 
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TJR said:



"Actually I don't believe in capital punishment because I don't think its a deterent . . ."



Well, it has certainly deterred Tookie. He definitely won't murder anyone again. Good riddance.

 
I find it amusing that Europe is trashing us in the media for the execution.



Europe!



The same Europe that has dished out death, genocide, torture, and every form of evil man has invented, throughout most of recorded history. Seems that, over the last half century, all of a sudden, they "know better." Of course, they do have time on their hands, free from tyranny, to ponder such issues. Freedom which was largely bought and paid for with American armaments and blood. But I digress. Europe is a shining beacon of human decency and their social commentary on our way of life should be carefully considered. :rolleyes:



 
Last summer, we did a tour of the Mansfield Reformatory.



When that prison was up and running, that prison was self sufficient. The inmates tended a farm to produce fruit, vegtables, meat, milk, and eggs. There was a slaughterhouse that was used to slaughter the animals for food. There was a factory that produced furnature used in public buildings. The governor and others used that furnature for desks, chairs, etc. They produced shoes that all the inmates wore. The shoes were such high quality, they had the general public wanting them.



When a man paid his dept to society, he left with a small amount of money he earned in prison, a train (or bus) ticket back to his home county, and most of all, a skill to become part of society.



How much did that prison cost the tax payers?



Nothing, Not a dime!



The prison was closed and a new prison was built. That new prison costs the taxpayers money, lots of it.



Why was the old one closed? It was a burdon for those inmates to work while in prison.



Maybe we should look back and see where the prison system is wrong and correct that.



I do feel, you take a life, yours should be ended. Unfortunatly, the justice system is not just. Judges are able to not allow evidence to free a person. That is wrong, plain and simple. You convict a man for a crime punishable by death and not allow all the evidence to come into court that could prove his innocence, you, as a judge should be punished.



Many people have been wrongfully put to death. An exact number, nobody knows. Why? Once the guy is dead, who cares? You see many cases where someone has been released from prison because of DNA evidence. 10 years ago, that might not have been possible. If that person was put to death within 1 year of being convicted, an innocent man would have died.



Personally, I do not want to pay to keep a scumbag murderer live the rest of his life. Even more so, I don't want to kill an innocent person.





Tom
 
Jim Johnson, said regarding deterence:
Well, it has certainly deterred Tookie. He definitely won't murder anyone again. Good riddance.



I used to say the same thing; that CP most definately is a deterent as it deters at LEAST one person at a time, the person put to death.



But assuming we could put people away for life, even in solitary, then that too is a deterent as they can't kill again. And it is proven to be less costly to taxpayers to do this than to put someone on death row.



And studies show it doesn't deter others.



Again, it seems that CP simply serves our need for vengence.



Don't get me wrong, I am not crying for this guy. But I think it says equally awful things about a society that has murderers as a society that kills murderers.



TJR
 
Dale Carter says:
The right wings stand on abortion and capital punishment are not contradictory. Aborted babies are innocent victims, while death row executions are earned by the vicious acts a person commits to forfetit their right to live among the rest of us.



Sure they are contradictory. I am a conservative and a Christian and I can see the contradiction.



Both are killing. Both are unnecessary, and the Bible says: "Thou shalt not kill"



Pretty clear to me.



TJR
 
Scott Simon asks:
I am curious as to why you feel the death penalty is not cheaper in the long run than life. Last I looked it costs taxpayers about $35k/year to house one detainee in federal prison. So a lifer that maybe is in the system for 28 years is a million bucks down the drain (not even taking inflation into account



It just isn't, as the facts and statistics prove. Most death row victims have appeal after appeal over 15 to 20 years costing taxpayers near millions in public defense monies.



Yes, I agree that it shouldn't cost more, but the facts are, it does.



TJR
 
Dale Carter says:
BTW, for all of you "wrongfully executed" fans out there, can you tell me how many have been wrongfully executed? That were totally innocent, not just of that crime, but for any capital offense? I want a number. I bet it is VERY low becasue it is so hard to get a death sentence in the first place. Can you name even one?



I like your choice of words.."fans". Don't get me wrong, Dale, I just don't believe in vengence and killing people as punishment. Especially when it really solves no purpose.



As for your question, well I don't have a specific example, but the question is flawed. You and others keep getting back to "totally innocent of that crime and others". The law of our land is such that a person can beat the crap out of people and do a lot of terrible things and be convicted of them, but those crimes alone cannot be used to show guilt in some other, worse crime like murder. You can't be convicted by your previous crimes.



If you want to change that, and when that gets changed, then we can talk on certain terms about the "truly innocent".



But, until then, we have seen time and time again of people wrongly convicted, often because they fit a criminal profile. And if that happens in lifetime sentencing, and it has been proven to happen in those cases, then it surely is happening in death sentences.



TJR
 
Sounds to me we need to limit the number of appeals. Unfortunately, and I think we can all agree with this one, the only people that like the way our justice system works are the lawyers.
 
TJR - The Hebrew word used in the Commandments is more closely translated to our word of murder. If the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" how did God expect the promised Land to be conquered as he ordered, I think, Abraham ? How did so many of the OT heroes justify warfare? Fact is there are plenty of Biblically sanctioned forms of killing.



Regarding lifetime incarceration preventing any further killing, how do you explain the killings in prisons?



Int he "innocent of that crime" comments, I specified "capital" crimes.



Curious, with the power of Google, not one verifiable case of an excuted innocent person has been offered by anyone in this thread.
 
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