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Got to love Arizona. There are cameras everywhere now. Every time I go down to Tempe, I swear they have 1 or 2 more red light cameras. I think Arizona has 3 cities in the top 5 for deaths from red light running in the nation, with Phoenix being #1. I believe at one point, the intersection by me at 48th and Ray Rd. was the deadliest intersection in the nation as far as red light running. I just got out of one of those Defensive Driving courses about 3 weeks ago and learned quite a bit about how dangerous it really is to drive in AZ. However, I am not for putting up cameras to primarily make money.
 
Caymen said:
Simply put, if safety is the true reason, the camera's should be a last resort. There are better and more effective ways to improve safety.



I disagree (shock I tell you).



Cameras are a very good first line of defense in making things safer. The KEY, however, is to make sure they are not stealth. Cameras work 24x7. Use that advantage and install them along with signs that say "xxx Enforced by Camera 24 Hours a Day"



TJR
 
You speed, you get a ticket, you can choose to go to court. May or may not get points and a fine. Doesn't matter if your caught by a real person or a camera. Don't speed is the solution (or run red lights). I am not preaching just stating how it is. I have got my own fair share of tickets and probably speed or hit a light late on a daily basis. In fact I know I speed daily. You get caught you pay. I for one take all my tickets to a lawyer (many). He charges me $58.00. I have never once paid a fine or received points. I am out the 58 bucks each time and that is it. If you feel the system is out to get you then you have just as many options to get back at the system. We would all like to think that an understanding police officer as opposed to a camera may have some compassion but Caymens statement above is incorrect. There are no 'extenuating circumstances' laws. You can't legally speed for medical reasons and you can't legally speed for mechanical reasons. You know how many times a day judges must hear that crap. LOL If you feel you have a necessary reason to speed then by all means do so. I know I would. I also know that if I get caught speeding my pregnant wife to the hospital or speeding my stuck throttle down the highway then a fine and points are going to be the least of my worries.
 
We would all like to think that an understanding police officer as opposed to a camera may have some compassion but Caymens statement above is incorrect.



So, if you had a mechanical or HEALTH issue that caused you to break a law an officer will NEVER let the ticket slide?



If I kill someone because they stabbed my wife, am I still given the death penalty for killing another human being.



TJR, you would disagree with me if I said the sky was blue.





Tom



 
I do agree that they are primarly for revenue. A great example is here in Calgary they have a bunch of intersections with "count down timers" to let you know when the light is going to change, yet none of the intersections that have red light cameras have these count down timers. Why is that? I think that if you were to have both at an intersection and you get your photo taken your really deserve the ticket, but the way it is set up now it looks like they are just trying to generate revenue.
 
TJR, you would disagree with me if I said the sky was blue.



HAHAH



Now I don't care who you are thats just funny right there !!!! :lol::lol:





Actually there IS 1 post where TJR did agree with you tom, I just cant find it right now..LOL



Todd Z
 
Caymen you are almost correct. Albeit a little literal. If you kill someone for any reason what so ever you are going to most likely be charged with murder or manslaughter or what have you. You speed in front of a camera and you are going to be charged with speeding and get a ticket. The point I was trying to make is you get your day in court. No matter what your story is you still committed the offense. I don't even want to get started on if you beat the killing wrap because then you still got to go through the civil charges brought on by the scum bags family of the person you killed. Because he can no longer provide for them. You might end up paying support to the family of the guy who stabbed your wife.



By the way this can no longer happen in the state of Florida as there have been some recent changes in the Castle Doctrine laws in regards to civil penalties being filed by interested parties in these types of situations.
 
The law is pretty black and white for most basic moving violations. It doesn't matter if you were caught by a camera, a uniformed police officer, or a concerned citizen who is quick to call in people violating the law. You break the law, you should get the appropriate citation. If you feel justified in your breaking of the law, then that's why we have a court system. Tell the judge, tell the jury, and if you've got a good case, then they can overrule the original citation. It's almost like all of these systems are meant to work together for the benefit of the public...strange coincidence, that.



Every red light and every stop sign should be photo enforced. Maybe it'll stop a few more people from breaking the law. Prevent a few more accidents. A few more may live to see tomorrow. Use the money to pay the public defenders what they deserve. Use the money to improve road safety. Catch the same people enough times and maybe they'll just go broke enough to not afford gas and keep their dangerous driving selves off the road.
 
If causing you to slam on your brakes to stop in time of a light could endanger someone behind you, is that any different?



Yes, it is different, because I can control my speed, I can control whether or not I run the light or come close to it, and I can control the distance I put between myself and the car in front of me. What I cannot control is is the distance that someone is following me, the speed they are traveling, etc. If they want to risk an accident, then fine, I would much rather be rear ended than T-bone someone or get T-boned myself. I think that kind of risk is just stupid and needless, and there's no excuse for running a red light. Judging the timing of the light incorrectly is not as bad, but still inexcusable.





If those same communities that put those camera's up for safety actually wanted safety, making the yellow light longer would be the safer thing to do.



This would work, but only in effect. The people who drive along the routes where the lights have longer yellows would figure out that the timing has increased and begin to chance the lights just as they had before the lengths had been increased. Nothing would change, except that the number of accidents would increase due to idiots taking their chances that the light won't change before they make it through.
 
In my jurisdiction, photo citations are reviewed by a police officer (usually somebody who screwed up and is now chairborne) and are subject to protest / due process procedures. The rare, bonafide excuse (medical emergency, chased by T-Rex, dog ate my speedometer, etc.) will often result in dismissal, as will any other reason accepted by the hearing officer (more of a referee than a judge). If they cannot identify you from the photo and you swear under penalty of perjury that it was not you and that someone mysteriously took your car but you do not know who it was....you MIGHT get by.



When I stop a driver, I am required to ask things nowadays we never had to ask in the old days in order to minimize drivers crying foul in court. Now I have to ask if there is a reason WHY they illegally turned or ran the red light or exceeded the speed limit or ran over 12 nuns at the intersection. I have to ask if they have a medical condition...and I have to resist the temptation to ask if terminal stupidity is the affliction. I have to ask if there is a mechanical problem with the vehicle, like a lead diver's weight on the gas peddle. I have to ask if there is any other reason why they did what they did..."Do you know who I AM?" does not count.



Out here on the left / west coast drivers have every opportunity to explain their plight when pulled over. The range of excuses and responses are so satisfying that it compensates for our low pay...often it is a test of self control just to not laugh my ass off at the driver for a great BS alibi. BTW...often the funniest, most outrageous, crazy lie will get a driver off with my reply being, " You, sir (or ma'am) are clearly a master at prevarication but because you otherwise were cooperative and your paperwork is in order, I'll let you go with a warning."



Out here, too, the company that builds, installs and maintains the photo traps takes a cut but at least cops are in the loop and you can ask for a hearing. It DOES help with safety. People know where the traps are, usually at particularly hazardous intersections. People who blow a light see the flash going off. I would disagree with the system if they do, in fact, shorten the yellow timing or otherwise play dirty with the lights.



Driver's who put covers over their plates, over tint the windshield, try radar / laser/ etc. countermeasures, activate force fields or cloaking devices usually don't succeed, at least not often enough to make it worthwhile (admittedly, out on the freeways, etc. some detectors may help). Out here, covers on the plates is a violation but radar detectors are permitted. There were even folks who tried to use military stealth technology and materials to beat the system. They covered the hood and trunk area with echosorb or used radar transLUCENT (not transparent) materials to build a trunk / hood thinking that if it was good enough for the stealth fighter it sure would beat Smokey and his handheld radar. Trust me, even if you beat the electronics aspects usually the cop's Mark One binary organic optical receptor units will get you.



Lots of folks "get away" sometimes or most times but seldom all the time.



Some cops consider the automated citation devices competition. If we have to compete with a machine to meet our quota, how are we gonna' get enough points to score a microwave or plasma TV?
 
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LOL Eltee I feel for ya. When I am caught I know it and I spill my guts with my 'yes sirs' and 'no sirs'. More often than not I get a warning and sent on my way. I have a friend who is a great guy but a little naive in how smart he is and how much he thinks he knows about the law. He argues with the cops not to be a jerk but just because he thinks he knows better and can talk his way out. He gets a ticket every time LOL. Now as a fellow Myst member could you please send me one of those get out of jail free cards or one of those secret stickers I can put in my back window. I know you guys got em. LOL
 
Your friend fails the attitude test and that normally guarantees a ticket. If it is a highway officer, they may go out of their way to add mechanical violations..."Gee, that (fill in blank/s) seems defective or not meeting DOT requirements."



The stickers and license plate frames given to family members, etc. of LEO's fell out of favor when badguys used them to target cars (and sometime people) for retaliation. My wife just puts one of my business cards in the window when she needs to, plus cops can register their cars as LEO owned and if another cop runs the plate it comes up.



The best sticker I can think of right now is, "Krispy Kreme On Board."



 
Caymen said:
TJR, you would disagree with me if I said the sky was blue.



Only if it wasn't actually blue.



I only disagree with you when you state something that is illogical, can't be backed up, or seems wrong.



If the times of disagreement are numerous then maybe that should tell you something. ;)



TJR
 
Eltee said:
When I stop a driver, I am required to ask things nowadays we never had to ask in the old days in order to minimize drivers crying foul in court.

I figure that's why they always ask "Do you know why I pulled you over?"

I never admit to it. ;)

"Sorry officer, I did speed up a little just to pass that truck and didn't look at the speedometer...."

I always just pay the money anyway except for that one time last year. Smokey had radar set up right in front of a toll booth on the road I take between my offices. I mean, c'mon, I'm gonna be stopping in a few seconds to pay the toll anyway. :rolleyes: A revenue trap if there ever was. Fought the ticket on the basis that the speed limit signs were not within state specifications for distance (not even close). Magistrate impatiently looks down his nose at me when I start and says "Look, do you just want to get out of the points and pay a little less?" "That would be okay your honor." "Okay, I'll give you 60 in a 55, no points, and a lower fine." A few months later I get my points notice from the state, the bastard turned me in for 65 and three points.

Screw it, next time I get a ticket on that road I'm fighting it. PA MV Code says speed limit signs "must be no more than one-half mile apart for the posted limit to be enforceable". I'm giving it a shot.
 
I always encourage people to take their citations to court. Court time = overtime. Win or lose, the cop gets paid. Gotta' pay for that next vacation! ;)
 
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The point I was trying to make is you get your day in court. No matter what your story is you still committed the offense.



Unfortunatly, the courts and police know that it is CHEAPER to pay the fine than it is to fight it. Wouldn't that be considred extortion?



In my town, the owner of the car gets the ticket. No picture of the driver. The Akron Police Department does not even check the citation. The ticket is issued by a company out of Rhode Island.



Yes, it is different, because I can control my speed, I can control whether or not I run the light or come close to it, and I can control the distance I put between myself and the car in front of me. What I cannot control is is the distance that someone is following me, the speed they are traveling, etc. If they want to risk an accident, then fine, I would much rather be rear ended than T-bone someone or get T-boned myself. I think that kind of risk is just stupid and needless, and there's no excuse for running a red light. Judging the timing of the light incorrectly is not as bad, but still inexcusable.



That still does not mean it changes the fact that it is proven by making the yellow light longer all but eliminates red light running. The total number of accidents do not go down with speed light camera's. In many cases, the accident severity goes up.



It is not safety, it is money.



This would work, but only in effect. The people who drive along the routes where the lights have longer yellows would figure out that the timing has increased and begin to chance the lights just as they had before the lengths had been increased. Nothing would change, except that the number of accidents would increase due to idiots taking their chances that the light won't change before they make it through



Studies prove otherwise.



I only disagree with you when you state something that is illogical, can't be backed up, or seems wrong.



If the times of disagreement are numerous then maybe that should tell you something. ;)



Actually, that says you like to argue with me and do not argue with other people that agree with what I say.



I always encourage people to take their citations to court. Court time = overtime. Win or lose, the cop gets paid. Gotta' pay for that next vacation! ;)



That is a nice incentive to pad tickets or issue tickets that hold no ground. I would completely support a rule change that would say if the court finds in fovor of the defendant, a police officer does not get paid. That way, you have something to lose.





Tom
 
I've gotten by with quite a few warnings by just pulling over and waiting for the officer to turn around. I know I was speeding I'm not going to play any games. I won't fess up to actually knowing what speed I was going, just that I knew I was going too fast. The tickets I have gotten they have dropped the actual speed down on the ticket so they don't have to take me to jail. (ps, all open highway. I take city driving and neighborhoods very carefully)



The last ticket I got was probably because of the smirk on my face. I pulled wayyyy the hell over to the right so that the officer wouldn't have any issues with traffic but she came to the right side of the vehicle anyways. (probably protocol) I didn't roll the windows down and she didn't know I had dogs in the truck and the dogs didn't see her approaching from the rear. When she knocked on the window all hell broke loose. After she jumped back and about 5-10 seconds of her doing nothing I finally said that I wasn't going to roll down the passenger window but I would get out of the truck. She decided to come to the driver side. The smirk resulted from me trying my hardest not to break out in a laugh.



Now, when she came to the driver side the dogs wanted to be her best friend. I told a pal that although I would like to think that while the dogs were between me and her they were being protective and that when I became in between her and the dogs they were following their owners lead but I am not that nieve.

Take out food is brought in to the truck from the drivers side and anybody on that side is all right by them. I think they were disappointed that she never did produce any burgers or fries for them.:angry:
 
Caymen said:
Actually, that says you like to argue with me and do not argue with other people that agree with what I say.



No one else is saying what you said that I can see, and I will quote what you said again:
Simply put, if safety is the true reason, the camera's should be a last resort. There are better and more effective ways to improve safety.



I say that if safety is the real reason then cameras CAN be the first resort. A camera doesn't take a break. A camera works 24x7. A camera doesn't make a "judgement call". A camera just didn't have a big fight with its wife or girlfriend. A camera doesn't have bias against race, sex, the type of car you drive.



No, a camera or other such technology along with well placed, highly observable signs instructing drivers of their use can be the first, best safety measure, IMHO.



For example, if I know the EzPass lanes are going to take my picture and send me a ticket if I go through them faster than 5 miles per hour, then I am going to make sure they don't. In their absence, if I can "get away" with that offense as long as no police are around, then I am much more likely to push it.



The same is true with an intersection camera and running a stale yellow. If its an intersection I frequent and I know there is a camera I am not going to push it.



The key, IMHO, is people knowing the devices are there and that they will get caught. If you make them aware then they will more likely drive without infraction.



Why do you think otherwise?



TJR
 
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1. The lenses on the plates do work. I don't care what Myth Busters says. I've haven't received a ticket mailed to me yet with those on. In Downtown Seattle it's easy to get caught in an intersection with pedestrians and tourist not paying attention. Your in the intersection when the light turns red you will get a thank you note in the mail for it.



2. I speed everyday 5-10 over the limit. I've been pulled over once in 15 years. It was dropped by my lawyer before the court date.



3. If I get a ticket in the city I live in I will be out-of the ticket before the cop even starts to write it up. The city police I do all their graphics for their SWAT team.



The cameras are there. I can't change that. I can't change if a cop decides to set a speed trap.



What I can change is the outcome of the ticket. That is why I have a good lawyer.



TJR... the sky isn't blue. It's gray. Anyone living in Seattle will prove that to you 8-10 months a year...LOL But, I'm sure you will debate that too it's in your DNA.
 
I say that if safety is the real reason then cameras CAN be the first resort. A camera doesn't take a break. A camera works 24x7. A camera doesn't make a "judgement call". A camera just didn't have a big fight with its wife or girlfriend. A camera doesn't have bias against race, sex, the type of car you drive.



A traffic light is not biased either. Extending the yellow light by a half second has shown to make intersections safer. Camera's have proven to make intersections the same and actuially, in some cases, made them LESS safe.





Tom
 
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