OT: Political Poll - Racist or Not Racist?

[Kevin Lang]

2, totally 2. 100% NOT racist.



Bill V, displaying Biden as a deranged doctor like Mengele in your hypothetical scenario is still racist, and has further racial connotations.

If I were black, I may take offence to that. Something alst to consider is the original motives by the picture. Was it done before the whole "Healthcare reform" started or after. if before, then the motives behind the picture were offensive.

Caymen, black people should be proud of that, since that is their heritage...maybe they should get another month or something to celebrate it.



EDIT: Wrong person given wrong credit. TJR, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems that you're implying that you consider this to not be racist ("you consider.." as a formality; it is not). I am truly surprised.

 

[Bill V]

Okay, so what you are saying is that because Obama is black and because African tribal witch doctors are also black, if someone draws a parallel between Obama Care and a witch doctor then the parallel is racist?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that this image would not have been done if Obama was 100% white. The only reasons an African tribal witch doctor was used, instead of an image of the spiritual healers of any other race or culture, is because Obama is black, and because the originator wanted to implicitly tie in other race-based negative connotations of the African race to Obama.

Using a subject's physical features to draw parallels with an unflattering representation is nothing new and is not inheriently racist.

True, but in this case, it's not using Obama's physical features, it's using his racial background.



I don't feel the Bush image you used is appropriate, either. However, there is a huge difference between them. The Bush image is playing off a similarity in physical characteristics, but with the knowledge that there is not physical/genetic link, and is therefore truely drawing an analogy. The Obama image is, at one level, saying that Obama's medical plan is somehow the result of his genetic/racial link to African tribesmen. It's far more than making an anology. That's racism.



That said, I do want to amend my earlier response, to say that of your three options, in addition to the answer being all of #1 and part of #3, it's also part of #2. The first word of that answer, "No.", is wrong. But the rest, "The image is political satire which is often not flattering but has been around for hundreds of years in cartoons and other mediums.", is true. But the fact that that statement is true does not in any way make the image non-racist.

 

[Gavin Allan]

TJR, I think you need to take some Zoloft and get a hobby or something...

 

[Rodger Tellefson]

I am sure that many black people in this country will probably construe the picture to be racist, but what about Native American Shamans where the same correlation can be drawn?



My vote is for no. 3. We need to focus on the issues, and have meaningful discussion around them, not be distracted by political satire.



My judgement is that most of the protestors of the Obama health reform plan are connected with the health insurance companies that are making huge profits from our being sick. What we need is to model our health care similar to that of the worlds healthiest countries. Here's an article I found on Forbes.com.

 

[Kevin Lang]

So Bill V, you think it is ok for a white man to be denigrated into a chimp, but not for a black man to be portrayed as a witch doctor? That is racist right there. If blacks can't have the same media rights as whites, then that's racism, and that is what you're advocating.



So casting an image as inappropriate because it is racist when you are racist is highly hypocritical.



<HR>



EDIT:"My judgement is that most of the protestors of the Obama health reform plan are connected with the health insurance companies that are making huge profits from our being sick."



And what is wrong with profit? Why is profit implied to be evil? If you don't like their evil profits, curtail them by buying a better product. If there isn't one available, then make one before you sic the government on it, because governments never leave the market...but crappy products can.

 

[Carey Frennier]

3

 

[Les]

EDIT:"My judgement is that most of the protestors of the Obama health reform plan are connected with the health insurance companies that are making huge profits from our being sick."

So the 75,000 people that were in Washington over the weekend protesting Obamacare work for the insurance companies?

 

[Bill V]

KL, oddly enough, this is the second post I'm having to make in the last few minutes basically telling you to read the full text of what you're commenting on.



You said,

So Bill V, you think it is ok for a white man to be denigrated into a chimp, but not for a black man to be portrayed as a witch doctor?

when I specifically said,

I don't feel the Bush image you used is appropriate, either.

So obviously, no, I don't think it's OK for Bush, or any person, to be denigrated into a chimp. But doing so is far different than the witch doctor image being discussed. And this is an important note--I never said the Obama image was WORSE than the Bush image. I said that they are DIFFERENT. I think they're both pretty equally insulting--but for completely different reasons that make it impossible to do an apples-to-apples comparison of the two.

 

[Tom Schindler]

But, at the end of the day I wanted each person to pick a single answer, and it seems you picked 3.

My comment says that I pick number 2 because I do not see the picture as racist. I can see how someone can consider that picture as being racist. As for any American, as a whole, would be answer 3 since we have important issues.



It isn't racist but there are more important things to worry about.



As for the Bush/Chimp picture, nothing bad about that because Bush looks like a chimp. So much so, a website was dedicated to that cause...





Tom

 

[Rodger Tellefson]

And what is wrong with profit? Why is profit implied to be evil? If you don't like their evil profits, curtail them by buying a better product. If there isn't one available, then make one before you sic the government on it, because governments never leave the market...but crappy products can.

First, nothing is wrong with profit. But, consider the quote below from the link.



The current system depends on private insurance companies to reimburse all costs. This profit-driven insurance-based medical reimbursement system is fatally flawed on several levels and always has been. The basic business model of any insurance company is to do everything possible to collect premiums and then do everything possible to deny coverage. Therefore, people who need medical attention are frequently denied expensive (but often the most effective) treatment or, alternatively, people with pre-existing conditions cant get insurance coverage in the first place when they are the ones who need it most. As a result, insurance companies often dictate the most critical medical decisions more than the physicians. Its just so wrong.

 

[Tom Schindler]

As a result, insurance companies often dictate the most critical medical decisions more than the physicians.

Thats right. We "allow" an accountant to put a price on your health. And that is OK. If a doctor said surgery was too expensive and we were not worth it, we would be pissed. An insurance company says so, no biggie.





Tom

 

[Rodger Tellefson]

Thats right. We "allow" an accountant to put a price on your health. And that is OK. If a doctor said surgery was too expensive and we were not worth it, we would be pissed. An insurance company says so, no biggie.

That is soooo true, which is why I made the post on the healthiest countries in the world and what we can learn from them. With the emphasis on learn not copy.

 

[JerryW Gilliland]

I vote #2.



I've seen the image, and others like it, many times. I never connected racial motivation by the original author.



As far as #3: . Don't Care / Doesn't Matter. We need to focus on the real problems in this country.



There are many "real" problems in these times, but to say that racial issues aren't important is selling the matter short. I don't know how many discussions I've read or taken part in that covered the fact that when Obama was elected, people were saying "Now that we have a black man as our president, any criticism by people/comedians/newscasters leveled at the president will be considered racist." And that is very true, from what I've seen.

I am not a racist, but I'm very critical of the Obama administration, as I was of the last few years of the Bush administration.

 

[Gavin Allan]

Thats right. We "allow" an accountant to put a price on your health. And that is OK. If a doctor said surgery was too expensive and we were not worth it, we would be pissed. An insurance company says so, no biggie.

AMEN.



We require doctors to complete years of schooling, residency, boards, etc. and yet their decision have to be approved by a zit-faced clerk on the other end of a telephone who works for the insurance company. It is horrible and shameful.



Obama care would insert another step in the process. The doctor would have to call a zit-faced pencil-head bureacrat to get another approval too.



I HATE what this country is coming to.



Get the government out of the free enterprise system!

 

[Gavin Allan]

Race is such a silly thing to argue and get upset about. Why don't we treat it the same way we treat eye color, left-hand/right-hand, hair color, etc.?

 

[Mark K 2]

Obama care would insert another step in the process. The doctor would have to call a zit-faced pencil-head bureacrat to get another approval too.

Paranoid speculation. Did you ever think they'd simply follow Medicare rules, which would make the process easier?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen made the point that Bill V seems to ignore when he said:

As for the Bush/Chimp picture, nothing bad about that because Bush looks like a chimp.

So, since Bush has eyes that are a little close together, big ears and sometimes makes an expression with his mouth that looks chimp-like then there is nothing bad with drawing him as a chimp because it is simply recognizing common traits between him and a chimp. I'm fine with that.



If we agree with that, then how is it fundamentally different in the Obama witch doctor image? In that case an African tribal witch doctor and BHO also share a common trait, their black skin. That common trait allows someone to portray BHO as a witch doctor to make a satirical political point in which a witch doctor serves the purpose of making said point.



The ONLY difference that I see is that of the physical traits in question. The fact that in the BHO case the trait in question is skin color makes many people assume racism.



Racism to me is in the "intent" of an observed racial difference, not in the "observation".



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

KL said:

TJR, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems that you're implying that you consider this to not be racist ("you consider.." as a formality; it is not). I am truly surprised

I find the image politically incorrect, but not racist. As described above, I think observing some racial difference, or drawing parallels based on racial traits can be used in racist ways ("intent"), but it is not always the case that the mere recognition ("observation") is racist in of itself.



If answering my own poll I would answer it with: 3



TJR

 

[Andy Chase]

I think it would be a different story if it was similar to this cartoon...

 

[Bill V]

Caymen made the point that Bill V seems to ignore when he said:

Quote:



As for the Bush/Chimp picture, nothing bad about that because Bush looks like a chimp.

Actually, no, Bill V did not ignore it at all. Instead, TJR ignored the point Bill V made when he said:

So obviously, no, I don't think it's OK for Bush, or any person, to be denigrated into a chimp.

Would everyone quit either claiming or implying that I said or feel that the Bush image isn't offensive? I never did anything of the sort!