Get the Feeling You're Being Watched? If You're Driving, You Just Might Be

[Richard L]

JDBoxes,

I said that Germany has been using these traffic light cameras as well as photo radar for over 40 years. They ticket the owner of the vehicle, not the driver. I know that goes against the sensibility of most Americans, but there are a number of similiar situations in the USA that the owner is responsible for what happens with their vehicle.



I said that it might be something new to the American justice system, but in traffic court you do not have to prove a defendent is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, but only by a proponderance of evidence. So that fact that the photo does not show a face, the owner may have to prove that someone else was driving and bring that person into court and admit they were driving.



Another little know fact is that some of the newer traffic light cameras also take a photo of the front of the vehicle that captures the drivers face very clearly. But since they do not know the actual name of the driver, the Owner is sent a ticket usually with one of the photos attached. You may not know if they took a front photo, and if you ask for a jury trial, and the prosecutor shows the front photo and you are driving, I pretty sure you will be convicted, and you might be charged with perjury for good measure.



But your original statement said that you have the right to face the Witness, but who was the witness? The camera? My point was that is not what the Constitution says. It says you have the right to face your accusor, not a witness. You have the right to cross-exam a witness, and the camera technician can be cross examined as to the accuracy and reliability of the camera, but the picture speaks volumes.



Since most cameras will take a series of photos giving the date and time, as well as your speed and how long after the light turned red that you triggered the camera by crossing the sensor. That's a pretty tall order of evidence to climb over, but you are welcome to try.



As a final note: Many cities in many states are getting these cameras because the evidence they provide has continuously stood up in court as valid evidence and they are getting a lot of convictions. Even a larger percentage of convictions than they get with radar/lazer guns, because those can be operated improperly and give false readings.



...Rich

 

[2]

I said that Germany has been using these traffic light cameras as well as photo radar for over 40 years. They ticket the owner of the vehicle, not the driver.

Canada and Australia are the same way. In my city they started with these red light cameras a few years back, this year they are updating the software on all of them so that they take photos for "speed on green" as well as taking pics of red light runners. They are even talking about jail time for a vehicle owner with multiple offenses, but how the heck can they throw the owner of the vehicle in jail if it can't be proven that they were driving? It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. :angry:

 

[EddieS'04]

but how the heck can they throw the owner of the vehicle in jail if it can't be proven that they were driving? It will be interesting to see how this all plays out

OLaf, KGB tactics. In this new world they expect you to rat out your nieghbor or kin folk. If not you spend time in Siberia.

 

[Chad Fielder]

There was a time I dreaded some 1984ish computer/satellite managed driving system for vehicles but reading about setups like speed trap cameras or variable yellow light times I'm starting to wish for it. I know its a sci-fi sort of thing but there has been some testing of localized systems for metro public transit. It will happen someday for individual vehicles. Unless the local dons err.. government officials decide they cant part with their revenue.



Personally I would love to see the "revenue" side of monitoring traffic be cut off entirely if we're to be boxed in so tight that there's nothing unique about driving. Just put us in a box with windows and roll us there.



Don't get me wrong, blatant red light violations or gross speeding violations (20+ over) and the like should be punished. My big issue is that there's just no room for judgment calls with these cameras. Get caught driving in a rain storm when its obviously better to coast through a yellow just as it turns red (vs locking it down and risking a nasty wreck) and there's no way of saying it was safer to drive on through. You'll be judged on a moment in time with no context whatsoever. Granted you dont really get that now but at least a local officer can make his own judgment call.



Generally though, not much burns me up more than to read about some government entity (usually some city council with an impossible budget situation) counting on traffic violation "revenue". To top it off with them being able to do it without even paying an officer to be the bad guy in person makes it even worse.



The people that really win with this camera thing are the insurance companies. They'll be able to create a whole new risk matrix to gouge people with. Theyll probably get the photo and violation info before you receive it in the mail. Most of us will have to go to the meager liability the law says we have to have; at least those that havent already dropped anything closely resembling full coverage.

 

[Les]

Funny this post came up today, I saw on Fox News that one city was thinking about using the cameras to record your Tag number and check for valid insurance, no insurance, you get a ticket in addition to running that red light. Big Brother is gonna be out there. We have more cameras watching us than ever before and not even know it.

This is in Hollywood, Florida. Car mounted camera and the LEO drives around in mall parking lots looking for anything that triggers the alarm. This isn't about safety, just about revenue...

 

[LoriMaury Kimbrough]

They are everywhere in AZ. Our previous Gov., put them in place as a revenue generator. AAA has rated AZ as a very unfriendly visitor state for the camera's alone.



We even have mobile cameras. However, if you are caught by any photo radar you really get what you deserve. You are warned that it is a photo enforcement area. It's also pretty easy to tell because traffic slows until they are past the cameras.



Had a co-worker that got a photo radar ticket in the mail. He got a picture of himself driving the vehicle, a picture of the back showing his plates and a link to a website where he could watch a video of himself driving past the camera.



Photo radar ticket costs about $120 here.

 

[Rich Stern]

Some of the towns around us have had them for several years. They've been raking in huge revenue. You should see some of the nice, new town halls that got built with the money. And the fancy new SUV and Dodge Charger police cruisers put into service.



Then, last year, the Georgia state legislature was inundated with complaints from pissed off constituents who felt they were being unfailry fleeced by very short yellow lights. And the legislature acted. They legilsated that an additional 1 second had to be added to the delay before the camera takes the picture. The new, state law went into effect in January of this year.



Camera revenue plummeted immediately. The cameras went from being a cash generating machine to a cash swallowing sinkhole. And, despite admitting that the cameras had reduced accidents and injuries at those intersections, the towns quickly idled them.



Ya got that everyone? If the camera makes you safer and lets them put new, plush carpeting at town hall, it's all good. However, if the camera makes you safer, but loses money...well, maybe it's not such a good idea.



If these same political leaders had lived 240 years ago and brought the same kinds of values to governing, they'd find themselves in the hands of an angry mob, with the business end of a hanging rope around their necks.

 

[Les]

If these same political leaders had lived 240 years ago and brought the same kinds of values to governing, they'd find themselves in the hands of an angry mob, with the business end of a hanging rope around their necks.

Oh, for the good old days...

 

[Scott Doughtie]

Bud and everyone else, here is the article from the AJC on the tag scanners. I saw the Sandy Springs unit today - looks absolutely weird with all of the mounted cameras all over the roof.



http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/northfulton/stories/2009/03/20/license_plate_scanner.html





Also, the Georgia legislature passed a law last year mandating an extra second to the yellow cycle at any intersection with a red light camera. The result is that some municipalities here in Atlanta are dropping the red light cameras:



http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/2009/03/13/red_light_camera_cost.html

 

[Johnny O]

IMO traffic cameras violate the 4th Amendment against search and seizure. As noted, it has been found that some places shorten the yellow light time and also know that the traffic camera company gets a cut of the fine money.

Changing it is a fairly simple process, don't reelect the politicians who put that practice into place and run for office yourself on a platform of changing it.

I am stupid for keeping my college license plate and not getting PA's Flagship Niagra plate, which is unreadable by cameras, when I had the chance. They don't issue it any more for that reason.

 

[LoriMaury Kimbrough]

There is a bill awaiting vote right now in AZ that would make the photo radar cameras illegal here. I have mixed feeling about them. I would love to see them in school zones.



Re-electing the person that put them all over our state wasn't a problem. Our new President made her a member of his cabinet. Since I haven't really heard of anything she's done, I still don't know the answer to the question, is Janet Napolitano scarier at the State or at the National level..... I can tell you it was pretty scary at the State level.

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

In most cases, these cameras are for "increasing safety"... BS. They are for increasing revenue.



Washington, MO has a camera at a stop light. If your BUMPER hangs over the line... BAM. Ticket. It was not an "unsafe" intersection before, just a busy one. Now it's unsafe as there is an increase in fender benders.



Whoops.



But the city is happy because they can fleece drivers out of another chunk of $$$ to fund who knows what.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

We have traffic cameras all over Europe. Poland has them everywhere. About 100 yards before the camera there is a warning of a camera. I've been told most of the enclosures don't have cameras at all, and that the cameras are moved at random from place to place, since the government can't afford enough cameras to fill every box.



One guy at work has a very fast motorcycle. He speeds right through them, since there are no plates on the front of motorcycles, they can't identify him. He sees the flash, but he said very few of the boxes here have cameras. He goes as fast as 200 mph so the police have no chance of catching him in their broken down vehicles, and the police are notorious to be slow to respond to even the most dire emergencies here.



It is like the wild west on the roads here and it is not unusual to have over 50 deaths on a holiday weekend in a country about the size of Ohio and where only 10% of the people own cars. Last Easter's death toll approached 100.



I drive a lot here, but I am always watching for the ignorant fools. If some day I stop posting here, you will know why.