ray moyer
Well-Known Member
lol actually richard is right haha he pretty much told me what a STS rep told me over the phone bout a month or so ago
STS Remote Mount Turbo Systems
- Thread starter Carey Frennier
- Start date
Help Support Ford SportTrac Forum:
Are you serious? You call me ignorant? Seriously, after what you just said. OMFG, too funny!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowoff_valve
Definitions
A compressor bypass valve (CBV), also known as a compressor relief valve or diverter valve, is a vacuum-actuated valve designed to release pressure in the intake system of a turbocharged vehicle when the throttle is lifted or closed. This air pressure is re-circulated back into the non-pressurized end of the intake (before the turbo) but after the mass airflow sensor.
A blowoff valve, (BOV, sometimes hooter valve, not to be confused with a dump valve) performs the same task but releases the air into the atmosphere instead of recirculating it. The blowoff action produces a range of distinctive hissing sounds, depending on the exit design. Some blowoff valves are sold with a trumpet shaped exit that intentionally amplifies the sound. Some turbocharged vehicle owners may purchase a blowoff valve solely for the auditory effect even when the function is not required by normal engine operation. Motor sports governed by the FIA have made it illegal to vent unmuffled blowoff valves to the atmosphere. In the United States, Australia and parts of Europe cars featuring unmuffled blowoff valves are illegal for street use.[citation needed]
Blowoff valves are used to prevent compressor surge, a phenomenon that readily occurs when lifting off the throttle of an unvented, turbocharged engine. When the throttle plate on a turbocharged engine closes, the high pressure air in the intake system is trapped by the throttle and a pressure wave is forced back into the compressor. The compressor wheel slows rapidly and may even stall, and the driver will notice a fluttering air sound. The rapid slowing or stalling stresses the turbo and imparts severe turbo lag if the driver accelerates immediately after the surge event.
Of course, I said...
Tom
ray moyer
Well-Known Member
wiki is actually discredited by most colleges and schools in general so using it to prove a point seems....... well you get the picture.... anyway, in richards defense what he said was actually told to me by a rep, Dan, sooooooooooooooo
ill go with that since they will be installing the kit due to my time constraints and lazyness
:banana:
ill go with that since they will be installing the kit due to my time constraints and lazyness
:banana:
Still more proof...
http://www.alltrac.net/tuning/bovfaq.html
Tom
p.s. a friend and I designed and installed a turbo kit for his car. It ran very well. It was very fast.
http://www.alltrac.net/tuning/bovfaq.html
Tom
p.s. a friend and I designed and installed a turbo kit for his car. It ran very well. It was very fast.
Carey Frennier
Well-Known Member
Caymen is actually correct.
Caymen,
I am not arguing about the terms Wastegate, or BOV and I did not disagree that they were used to limit the boost. What I really disagree with you is regarding the second part of the statement that you decided to leave off your quote above:
Wastegates/BOV's do limit the boost, but the STS system has everything to do with the spinning of the turbo. Most under hood street turbo kits used wastegates to bypass the exhaust gasses around the turbo which slowed the spinning of the turbo and helped reduce underhood heat. That induces Turbo-Lag when you step on the gas because it takes time to get the turbo spinning up to speed. The STS system boost control only dumps the intake boost pressure and lets the full exhaust flow to the turbo to continue spinning the turbo. simply closing the BOV allows the turbo to reach full boost almost immediately...Thus no turbo-lag.
Just so you know that I am not impressed with your knowledge of turbos, I have designed and installed 3 turbos, 2 for my own vehicles that I raced, and one was on a friend's. All of them were done when you were probably still in diapers! I still keep up with turbo technology, and that is why I know how the STS sytem works and what makes it a better system than most underhood turbo kits.
PS: Just for your information, The term Wastegate is a form of Boost Control, but technichally was only used on race turbocharged race cars but is still used today. A true wastegate reduces boost by dumping the exhaust gasses into the atmosphere. That is illegal on street driven vehicles and mony manfacturers use the term boost control valve or similar wording. Wastgate and BOV are still used today because of the racing heritage, but that is not the proper term for the boost control valve on a turbocharged street vehicle.
Back in 1962-1963 Oldsmobile built a tubocharged V8 called a JetFire engine that required achohol injection at boost to keep dentonation down. The alchohol mix was called JetFire Fuel. The system was very problamatic and most mechanics removed the turbos because the did not understand how they worked. It used simple linkage rods to allow boost pressure to push against a spring to push open a valve that routed exhasust gasses away from the turbo and out the exhaust pipe. Boost pressure of (2-4 lbs) was used to inject the alcohol/water mixture.
I mention this because I had a friend who got hold of one of these rare cars (F85-Cutlass Convertable) about 15 years ago. His still had the turbo intact (even rarer) and wanted me to help him get it running...which I did.
...Rich
I am not arguing about the terms Wastegate, or BOV and I did not disagree that they were used to limit the boost. What I really disagree with you is regarding the second part of the statement that you decided to leave off your quote above:
Wastegates/BOV's do limit the boost, but the STS system has everything to do with the spinning of the turbo. Most under hood street turbo kits used wastegates to bypass the exhaust gasses around the turbo which slowed the spinning of the turbo and helped reduce underhood heat. That induces Turbo-Lag when you step on the gas because it takes time to get the turbo spinning up to speed. The STS system boost control only dumps the intake boost pressure and lets the full exhaust flow to the turbo to continue spinning the turbo. simply closing the BOV allows the turbo to reach full boost almost immediately...Thus no turbo-lag.
Just so you know that I am not impressed with your knowledge of turbos, I have designed and installed 3 turbos, 2 for my own vehicles that I raced, and one was on a friend's. All of them were done when you were probably still in diapers! I still keep up with turbo technology, and that is why I know how the STS sytem works and what makes it a better system than most underhood turbo kits.
PS: Just for your information, The term Wastegate is a form of Boost Control, but technichally was only used on race turbocharged race cars but is still used today. A true wastegate reduces boost by dumping the exhaust gasses into the atmosphere. That is illegal on street driven vehicles and mony manfacturers use the term boost control valve or similar wording. Wastgate and BOV are still used today because of the racing heritage, but that is not the proper term for the boost control valve on a turbocharged street vehicle.
Back in 1962-1963 Oldsmobile built a tubocharged V8 called a JetFire engine that required achohol injection at boost to keep dentonation down. The alchohol mix was called JetFire Fuel. The system was very problamatic and most mechanics removed the turbos because the did not understand how they worked. It used simple linkage rods to allow boost pressure to push against a spring to push open a valve that routed exhasust gasses away from the turbo and out the exhaust pipe. Boost pressure of (2-4 lbs) was used to inject the alcohol/water mixture.
I mention this because I had a friend who got hold of one of these rare cars (F85-Cutlass Convertable) about 15 years ago. His still had the turbo intact (even rarer) and wanted me to help him get it running...which I did.
...Rich
You said a Blow Off Valve was used in racing aplications to dump exhaust gasses into the atmosphere. That is completely wrong.
This is a perfectly correct, but worthless answer. All engines dump exhaust into the atmosphere. Even Mercedes-Benz vehicles do too. How do they do this? It is called an exhaust pipe. Race cars use open headers, but stick a converter and muffler onto that same vehicle, and it is street legal. Your point?
Wastegates are designed to limit boost. If there is no wastegate installed, the turbo would continue to boost until the turbo is maxed out.
A BOV was designed to vent the intake charge when shifting gears. That keeps the turbo spinning freely helping to eliminate lag.
What is boost lag? Boost lag is the time between the exhaust system starting to spin the turbine to build pressure. At idle, there is little to no boost being produced. When you punch it, the turbine spins, the boost builds and then you get power.
How would eliminating a wastegate eliminate boost lag?
Since you are the expert, please explain.
Tom
This is a perfectly correct, but worthless answer. All engines dump exhaust into the atmosphere. Even Mercedes-Benz vehicles do too. How do they do this? It is called an exhaust pipe. Race cars use open headers, but stick a converter and muffler onto that same vehicle, and it is street legal. Your point?
Wastegates are designed to limit boost. If there is no wastegate installed, the turbo would continue to boost until the turbo is maxed out.
A BOV was designed to vent the intake charge when shifting gears. That keeps the turbo spinning freely helping to eliminate lag.
What is boost lag? Boost lag is the time between the exhaust system starting to spin the turbine to build pressure. At idle, there is little to no boost being produced. When you punch it, the turbine spins, the boost builds and then you get power.
How would eliminating a wastegate eliminate boost lag?
Since you are the expert, please explain.
Tom
Caymen,
Sorry, I misspoke regarding the BOV or Pop Off Valve dumping exhaust gas, I meant to say Compressed intake air pressure. Waste Gates dump Exhaust gas into the atmosphere.
My point is that NO MODERN , STREET LEGAL VEHICLE USES A TRUE WASTE GATE BECAUSE
A True Waste gate is a device that dumps exhaust gases into the atmosphere before reaching the turbine WITHOUT going through the catalytic converter and remaining exhaust system. That would simply dump exhaust into the engine compartment No street vehicle can legally do that ..It is considered an exhaust leak. Most laws will not allow any exhaust gas to be released until it has passed the rear wheels or rear bumper, but never before passing to the rear of the passenger cabin.
The terms Waste Gate, BOV or POV are not devices used on street driven vehicles but have frequently been incorrectly used to describe various turbo boost control devices used in modern turbocharged street vehicles which do not dump exhaust or intake gasses directly into the atmosphere. On street vehicles, these gasses are routed through the complete exhaust system, or back through the intake system to bypass the exhaust turbine or ito the low pressure side of the intake compressor of the turbo. When applying these devices on turbocharged street vehicles they are properly called exhaust bypass valves, or boost control valves, etc
These definitions are not just mine since they were clearly stated in the definitions you posted That means by definition that turbocharged street engines do not use True waste gates, BOVs or POVs, since they cannot be vented directly to the atmosphere. However, My point was not to argue over what the parts are called, just to clarify that the names for these racing parts are frequently improperly applied to turbocharged street vehicles.
Actually I dont consider myself an expert, but comparing my knowledge and experience with turbochargers to yours I can see how you might think I am an expert..
Your nave question asking about how an STS turbocharged vehicle sitting at idle can reduce turbo-lag? It cant, and why would you want boost at idle??? If you want to launch off the line faster, you simply rev the engine before you try to leave the line, just like you do with any turbocharged or even non-turbocharged engine. That's just the basics aspects of drag racing. That's just a single purpose, straightline, step on the gas and go vehicle.
I am talking about reducing turbo-lag on a street driven vehicle, with curves, and slow down, speed up traffic. That's where most people want to drive their cars. So, If you are asking how the STS turbo system reduces Turbo-lag on a steet drive vehicle, please read on:
The STS rear mounted turbo system is different than the conventional engine mounted turbo systems because the turbo is powered by the exhaust gasses AFTER they have been through the catalytic converter. The STS turbo system also differs from most other street legal turbo systems in that they do not use any exhaust bypass valve to limit boost. 100% of all exhaust gasses are routed through the turbo at all times. Boost is limited by venting compressed intake air only. This allows the STS turbo to keep spinning the turbo at or near its maximum speed.
The difference in reduced turbo-lag with the STS turbo is great for street use because it provides the instant throttle response in situations where you are on an off the throttle like you encounter in normal driving on the street.. Things like coming up to pass a slow moving truck on a two lane road, or briskly zipping around a twisty mountain road, or even while shifting.
When you close the throttle on a turbocharged engine, the boost pressure rises and usually requires the boost limit device to activate to reduce boost pressure.
Most turbocharged engines will use an exhaust bypass valve to divert the exhaust gasses around the turbine and out through the catalytic converter, muffler and tailpipe. With no exhaust gas flowing to the turbine the turbocharger slows down dramatically. Now when you open the throttle there is a noticeable delay while the turbocharger spins up to speed to create boost.
In the STS system, the exhaust gasses are never diverted away from the turbine. 100% of the exhaust gasses are always spinning the turbocharger. Boost control is achieved by bleeding off boost pressure only from the compressed intake air. As soon as the throttle is opened, your turbine is already spinning at close to full speed and you have eliminated nearly all turbo-lag. The results is that you get much faster throttle response then most other turbochargers designed for street applications.
Consider that turbos operate at soeeds in excess of 100,000 RPM, and removing the exhaust flow from the turbine will quickly slow down the spinning of the turbo. However, if you continue to feed the turbo all the exhaust gasses the turbo continues to spin at or near its full speed and dramatically reduces or eliminates turbo-lag.
Why dont other turbos simply continue to feed exhaust gasses to the turbo like the STS system does? I am not sure, but I suspect that heat is the problem. It will build up excessive heat in the engine compartment, and may lead to early turbo bearing failure. The rear mounted STS turbo runs cooler because the exhaust has cooled some before it reaches the turbo, Also the STS turbo uses a separate electric oil pump that feeds oil to the turbo bearings at a constant rate regardless of engine speed. Conventional engine mounted turbochargers use engine oil pressure to lubricate the turbo bearings and the heat generated by the turbo can easily cook the bearings, especially if you shut the engine down after a long fast run and the oil stops flowing.And bearing failure is what kills most turbos. STS allows the electric oil pump to run even after the engine is shut off, which continues to circulate cool oil the turbo bearings
Rich
Sorry, I misspoke regarding the BOV or Pop Off Valve dumping exhaust gas, I meant to say Compressed intake air pressure. Waste Gates dump Exhaust gas into the atmosphere.
My point is that NO MODERN , STREET LEGAL VEHICLE USES A TRUE WASTE GATE BECAUSE
A True Waste gate is a device that dumps exhaust gases into the atmosphere before reaching the turbine WITHOUT going through the catalytic converter and remaining exhaust system. That would simply dump exhaust into the engine compartment No street vehicle can legally do that ..It is considered an exhaust leak. Most laws will not allow any exhaust gas to be released until it has passed the rear wheels or rear bumper, but never before passing to the rear of the passenger cabin.
The terms Waste Gate, BOV or POV are not devices used on street driven vehicles but have frequently been incorrectly used to describe various turbo boost control devices used in modern turbocharged street vehicles which do not dump exhaust or intake gasses directly into the atmosphere. On street vehicles, these gasses are routed through the complete exhaust system, or back through the intake system to bypass the exhaust turbine or ito the low pressure side of the intake compressor of the turbo. When applying these devices on turbocharged street vehicles they are properly called exhaust bypass valves, or boost control valves, etc
These definitions are not just mine since they were clearly stated in the definitions you posted That means by definition that turbocharged street engines do not use True waste gates, BOVs or POVs, since they cannot be vented directly to the atmosphere. However, My point was not to argue over what the parts are called, just to clarify that the names for these racing parts are frequently improperly applied to turbocharged street vehicles.
Actually I dont consider myself an expert, but comparing my knowledge and experience with turbochargers to yours I can see how you might think I am an expert..
Your nave question asking about how an STS turbocharged vehicle sitting at idle can reduce turbo-lag? It cant, and why would you want boost at idle??? If you want to launch off the line faster, you simply rev the engine before you try to leave the line, just like you do with any turbocharged or even non-turbocharged engine. That's just the basics aspects of drag racing. That's just a single purpose, straightline, step on the gas and go vehicle.
I am talking about reducing turbo-lag on a street driven vehicle, with curves, and slow down, speed up traffic. That's where most people want to drive their cars. So, If you are asking how the STS turbo system reduces Turbo-lag on a steet drive vehicle, please read on:
The STS rear mounted turbo system is different than the conventional engine mounted turbo systems because the turbo is powered by the exhaust gasses AFTER they have been through the catalytic converter. The STS turbo system also differs from most other street legal turbo systems in that they do not use any exhaust bypass valve to limit boost. 100% of all exhaust gasses are routed through the turbo at all times. Boost is limited by venting compressed intake air only. This allows the STS turbo to keep spinning the turbo at or near its maximum speed.
The difference in reduced turbo-lag with the STS turbo is great for street use because it provides the instant throttle response in situations where you are on an off the throttle like you encounter in normal driving on the street.. Things like coming up to pass a slow moving truck on a two lane road, or briskly zipping around a twisty mountain road, or even while shifting.
When you close the throttle on a turbocharged engine, the boost pressure rises and usually requires the boost limit device to activate to reduce boost pressure.
Most turbocharged engines will use an exhaust bypass valve to divert the exhaust gasses around the turbine and out through the catalytic converter, muffler and tailpipe. With no exhaust gas flowing to the turbine the turbocharger slows down dramatically. Now when you open the throttle there is a noticeable delay while the turbocharger spins up to speed to create boost.
In the STS system, the exhaust gasses are never diverted away from the turbine. 100% of the exhaust gasses are always spinning the turbocharger. Boost control is achieved by bleeding off boost pressure only from the compressed intake air. As soon as the throttle is opened, your turbine is already spinning at close to full speed and you have eliminated nearly all turbo-lag. The results is that you get much faster throttle response then most other turbochargers designed for street applications.
Consider that turbos operate at soeeds in excess of 100,000 RPM, and removing the exhaust flow from the turbine will quickly slow down the spinning of the turbo. However, if you continue to feed the turbo all the exhaust gasses the turbo continues to spin at or near its full speed and dramatically reduces or eliminates turbo-lag.
Why dont other turbos simply continue to feed exhaust gasses to the turbo like the STS system does? I am not sure, but I suspect that heat is the problem. It will build up excessive heat in the engine compartment, and may lead to early turbo bearing failure. The rear mounted STS turbo runs cooler because the exhaust has cooled some before it reaches the turbo, Also the STS turbo uses a separate electric oil pump that feeds oil to the turbo bearings at a constant rate regardless of engine speed. Conventional engine mounted turbochargers use engine oil pressure to lubricate the turbo bearings and the heat generated by the turbo can easily cook the bearings, especially if you shut the engine down after a long fast run and the oil stops flowing.And bearing failure is what kills most turbos. STS allows the electric oil pump to run even after the engine is shut off, which continues to circulate cool oil the turbo bearings
Rich
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...of packaging purposes. A real performance turbo system can have a waste gate that will re-enter the exhaust well past the turbo. It can be done, but with room limitations under the hood, it just isn't practical for a street driven car.
Saab used a BOV as original equipment on the turbo model. I have one when I can get my turbo engine installed in my car. The BOV is designed to vent intake pressures to keep the turbo spinning when the throttle plate closes. Nobody should ever use a BOV to limit boost pressure. This is especially true when you have a fuel injection system that meters air before the turbo. In that case, you vent the pressure in the intake side of the turbo.
Actually, my comment was sarcastic. You said I was wrong and you have admited using the wrong terminology and said I was wrong...
You said not have a wastegate will reduce turbo lag. I am asking you how because I do not know that simply because it isn't possible.
I would not feel safe having a turbo running full speed all the time. I know of some people that had a waste gate failure and over spooled their turbos. Of course, these are street driven cars with 400 HP out of a 1.8L engine.
They have waste gates AND BOV's that will pass smog testing.
My turbo engine feeds exhaust gasses to the turbo all the time. How you may ask? Because the turbo is mounted directly to manifold and the wastegate, albeit it is integrated into the turbo housing...it is still a wastegate though, remains closed until the boost limit is reached where it opens up and limits boost.
Tom
Caymen,
It appears that you dont know crap about turbochargers, or you just want to argue for the sake of arguing! It does not even appear that you can read since you continue to argue about things that I already explained. Most of your argument conflicts with the correct definitions that YOU supplied. Please take a moment to reread my posts and your post again before you reply.
What you just described is a Bypass Valve not a Waste Gate, however it is common for people and even manufactures to describe this as a Waste Gate. The fact that you or others may want to call it a Waste Gate is just a terminology difference.
As I explained twice before, I am not arguing terminology or that people are erroneously calling an Exhaust Bypass Valve a Waste Gate, I am only pointing out that there is a difference between a true Waste Gate and a Bypass Valve. All legal- street driven vehicles use Bypass Valves not Waste Gatesregardless of what you or anybody else wants to call it. If you dump the exhaust into the atmosphere, its called a waste gate, if you take that exhaust from that waste gate and route it around turbine and pipe it back into the exhaust system, its called a bypass valve. What is so damned hard for you to understand about that????
It has nothing to do with limited space under the hood. It is simply illegal to drive on the public highways with any vehicle that is dumping exhaust gas anywhere except out the tailpipe, and vehicles equipped with catalytic converters must route all exhaust through the catalytic converter. The issue is the same, it is illegal and the fact that a vehicle passed an emissions test does not make it legal. In your mind, its never illegal until you get caught! Unless the inspector actually sees how the turbocharger exhaust gasses are routed he will never detect an emission problem sticking the emissions detector in the tailpipe since they do not run the engine fast enough to reach the boost limits, so the waste gate is closed and nothing illegal is going out the tail pipe. If you really know anything about turbochargers, that would have been very obvious, and you would not make such stupid statements.
What you are describing is a compressor bypass valve...not a BOV. Again, read your own definitions.
By the way, Why should I even believe that you would own a Saab, since you trash all foreign vehicles and only buy Union made, American vehicles ??
Oh No, Please tell me its not so. Please dont tell me that you really dont believe I am an Expert. Now I really feel badI guess I wont be getting a Christmas present from you this year? Darn, Christmas just wont be the same this year! .Now thats Sarcasm
Cant you read ?? I already answered your question about turbo-lag. And IT IS possible because that is exactly the way the STS turbo kits are designed. But dont take my word for it, go read up about the STS turbo kits.
Who cares! You ask me to explain how STS turbos reduce Turbo-Lag and when I tell you how they do it, you claim you dont feel safe with that kind of system???
Obviously the Engineers at STS dont care how you feel and neither do I. If they thought you knew more than they did, they would have contacted you to ask how you felt about it. Heck, they didnt even contact me, or tell me anything about what they were doing. They did not let me in on any of their design secrets. I had to read about it in magazines and see it on TV, and thats how it was explained to the whole world. Perhaps you were out that day?
To reply to your safety concerns, The turbo is not always spinning at full speed, when the throttle closes exhaust gas slows down with the engine RPM. That slows the turbo, but it still can maintains more of its speed with exhaust gasses is flowing through it than turbos that uses a bypass valve (waste gate to you) where the turbine is no longer receiving any exhaust gas.
Where does the exhaust go when boost limit is reached?? If it dumps it immediately into the engine compartment then it is a true waste gate! If the exhaust is diverted away from the turbine and joins back into the exhaust after the turbo, it is an exhaust bypass valve.
As I have previously explained at least 3 times already, but you keep arguing about the term Waste Gate, while you are describing a turbo with an Exhaust Bypass Valve, not a true Waste gate. You can erroneously call it a Waste Gate if you wantJust like you are erroneously calling CBV (Compressor Bypass Valves) BOVs. You are not alone since many people do not know the difference. However the terms are technically incorrectJust read the definition you provided! Exhaust Bypass Valves and Compressor Bypass Valves are an (Emissions) enclosed systems and legal for street use, while true Waste Gates and BOVs are open systems and are illegal for street use regardless of what you call them.
What is so damned hard to understand about that??? I am convinced you know exactly what I am saying but you just want to argue, but your arguments get weaker and weaker each time you reply. I am talking about street legal turbocharger installations that 100% legal, while you are talking about cobbled-together jury-rigged, home brewed turbos that may or may not be truly street legal.
Rich
It appears that you dont know crap about turbochargers, or you just want to argue for the sake of arguing! It does not even appear that you can read since you continue to argue about things that I already explained. Most of your argument conflicts with the correct definitions that YOU supplied. Please take a moment to reread my posts and your post again before you reply.
What you just described is a Bypass Valve not a Waste Gate, however it is common for people and even manufactures to describe this as a Waste Gate. The fact that you or others may want to call it a Waste Gate is just a terminology difference.
As I explained twice before, I am not arguing terminology or that people are erroneously calling an Exhaust Bypass Valve a Waste Gate, I am only pointing out that there is a difference between a true Waste Gate and a Bypass Valve. All legal- street driven vehicles use Bypass Valves not Waste Gatesregardless of what you or anybody else wants to call it. If you dump the exhaust into the atmosphere, its called a waste gate, if you take that exhaust from that waste gate and route it around turbine and pipe it back into the exhaust system, its called a bypass valve. What is so damned hard for you to understand about that????
It has nothing to do with limited space under the hood. It is simply illegal to drive on the public highways with any vehicle that is dumping exhaust gas anywhere except out the tailpipe, and vehicles equipped with catalytic converters must route all exhaust through the catalytic converter. The issue is the same, it is illegal and the fact that a vehicle passed an emissions test does not make it legal. In your mind, its never illegal until you get caught! Unless the inspector actually sees how the turbocharger exhaust gasses are routed he will never detect an emission problem sticking the emissions detector in the tailpipe since they do not run the engine fast enough to reach the boost limits, so the waste gate is closed and nothing illegal is going out the tail pipe. If you really know anything about turbochargers, that would have been very obvious, and you would not make such stupid statements.
What you are describing is a compressor bypass valve...not a BOV. Again, read your own definitions.
By the way, Why should I even believe that you would own a Saab, since you trash all foreign vehicles and only buy Union made, American vehicles ??
Oh No, Please tell me its not so. Please dont tell me that you really dont believe I am an Expert. Now I really feel badI guess I wont be getting a Christmas present from you this year? Darn, Christmas just wont be the same this year! .Now thats Sarcasm
Cant you read ?? I already answered your question about turbo-lag. And IT IS possible because that is exactly the way the STS turbo kits are designed. But dont take my word for it, go read up about the STS turbo kits.
Who cares! You ask me to explain how STS turbos reduce Turbo-Lag and when I tell you how they do it, you claim you dont feel safe with that kind of system???
Obviously the Engineers at STS dont care how you feel and neither do I. If they thought you knew more than they did, they would have contacted you to ask how you felt about it. Heck, they didnt even contact me, or tell me anything about what they were doing. They did not let me in on any of their design secrets. I had to read about it in magazines and see it on TV, and thats how it was explained to the whole world. Perhaps you were out that day?
To reply to your safety concerns, The turbo is not always spinning at full speed, when the throttle closes exhaust gas slows down with the engine RPM. That slows the turbo, but it still can maintains more of its speed with exhaust gasses is flowing through it than turbos that uses a bypass valve (waste gate to you) where the turbine is no longer receiving any exhaust gas.
Where does the exhaust go when boost limit is reached?? If it dumps it immediately into the engine compartment then it is a true waste gate! If the exhaust is diverted away from the turbine and joins back into the exhaust after the turbo, it is an exhaust bypass valve.
As I have previously explained at least 3 times already, but you keep arguing about the term Waste Gate, while you are describing a turbo with an Exhaust Bypass Valve, not a true Waste gate. You can erroneously call it a Waste Gate if you wantJust like you are erroneously calling CBV (Compressor Bypass Valves) BOVs. You are not alone since many people do not know the difference. However the terms are technically incorrectJust read the definition you provided! Exhaust Bypass Valves and Compressor Bypass Valves are an (Emissions) enclosed systems and legal for street use, while true Waste Gates and BOVs are open systems and are illegal for street use regardless of what you call them.
What is so damned hard to understand about that??? I am convinced you know exactly what I am saying but you just want to argue, but your arguments get weaker and weaker each time you reply. I am talking about street legal turbocharger installations that 100% legal, while you are talking about cobbled-together jury-rigged, home brewed turbos that may or may not be truly street legal.
Rich
Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
Gettin better each read... 
Chad Merry
Well-Known Member
Well I am not going to waste to much time reading all the bickering about whos right or whos wrong. BUT I am planning to install this system on my ST along with a new Atlas II transfer case. I need that extra little boost climbing the mountains in Colorado when I go to Moab.. Plus it just sounds cool
And with the body lift it will be real easy to route the pipes up front. I was going to od the V8 swap but since I love driving my ST everyday and my has inspections that will hard to keep it legal.
Plus it just sounds coolAnd with the body lift it will be real easy to route the pipes up front. I was going to od the V8 swap but since I love driving my ST everyday and my has inspections that will hard to keep it legal.
chad,
If STS sells a kit designe specifically for your Sport Trac, then everything should work just fine. My only concern would be clearance for your spare tire? You may have to run without a spare, or keep the spare in the truck bed. If the turbo kit does not allow enough room to access the spare tire, you might just opt for a smaler spare-only donut, or simply a can of flat-fix for emergencies.
...Rich
If STS sells a kit designe specifically for your Sport Trac, then everything should work just fine. My only concern would be clearance for your spare tire? You may have to run without a spare, or keep the spare in the truck bed. If the turbo kit does not allow enough room to access the spare tire, you might just opt for a smaler spare-only donut, or simply a can of flat-fix for emergencies.
...Rich
Clay Campbell
Well-Known Member
Rich, I kinda doubt chads spare fits in the spare tire area anyway.
Chad Merry
Well-Known Member
Yep Clay is correct. I dont have a spare, unless I am offroading or traveling across country to go offroading.
That is my other project to build a rack that mounts above the bed. Kinda like a Yakima roof rack, except mine will be the same size as the bed, and supports will be bolted to the tie down hooks.
That is my other project to build a rack that mounts above the bed. Kinda like a Yakima roof rack, except mine will be the same size as the bed, and supports will be bolted to the tie down hooks.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I'll bet the turbo spins FASTER when the throttle is closed since there isn't any "pumping" going on, and the resulting drag from the pumping to slow down the turbo.
Try blocking off a squirrel cage fan and notice that it goes FASTER when there is no airflow through it.
Try blocking off a squirrel cage fan and notice that it goes FASTER when there is no airflow through it.
Gavin,
In the STS turbo, when you shut the throttle, the pressure only drops the excess boost pressure, so there is still some resistance, and the turbo will continue to try to compress the air based on the engines RPM and the volume of exhaust gas still flowing through the turbines. Of course if the throttle ramains closed long enough the turbo will slow down considerably and all boost pressure will be lost.
The real difference with the STS turbo is that all the available exhaust gas for any given engine RPM is always flowing into the turbo and spinning it much faster than if the exhaust gas was routed around the turbo. That's what causes turbo-lag and is the biggest gripe everyone has always had about turbocharged engines. No midrange throttle response is terrible on a street driven vehcile because that's what you need for passing acceleration. STS turbos put that quick throttle response back into turbocharged vehicles.
...Rich
In the STS turbo, when you shut the throttle, the pressure only drops the excess boost pressure, so there is still some resistance, and the turbo will continue to try to compress the air based on the engines RPM and the volume of exhaust gas still flowing through the turbines. Of course if the throttle ramains closed long enough the turbo will slow down considerably and all boost pressure will be lost.
The real difference with the STS turbo is that all the available exhaust gas for any given engine RPM is always flowing into the turbo and spinning it much faster than if the exhaust gas was routed around the turbo. That's what causes turbo-lag and is the biggest gripe everyone has always had about turbocharged engines. No midrange throttle response is terrible on a street driven vehcile because that's what you need for passing acceleration. STS turbos put that quick throttle response back into turbocharged vehicles.
...Rich
