Sending well wishes to everyone affected by the "Sandy"
- Thread starter Rodger Tellefson
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Bill V
Well-Known Member
Saying that certain characteristics of storms are similar is, indeed, a comparison. Granted, I will agree with you that that type of comparison doesn't imply that any disaster was any worse than another. But a) not all comparisons have to say that one thing is better, worse, or different than another, b) my comparisons weren't saying that any disaster was better or worse than another, it was just noting a perceived difference, and c) there's nothing wrong with making such comparisons and contrasts.
:haveabeer:
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
When one "contrasts", one compares. They're even considered synonyms.
Looks like that old saying of "Compare and Contrast" that was bandied about in school was redundant for the sake of alliteration and (possibly) clarity.
Edited for link.
Looks like that old saying of "Compare and Contrast" that was bandied about in school was redundant for the sake of alliteration and (possibly) clarity.
Dictionary.com said:
Google Definitions said:
Edited for link.
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Once again, people show their pettiness and inability to act like adults. Whether it's sports teams, or cars, or trucks, or whatever, there will always be those that when one is compared to another they revert to 11 year olds.
Hurricane Sandy was bad. The damage caused in many places did in fact rival examples of damages from Katrina. Whether or not the widespread damage is the same, the total lost in dollars, lives, etc, the same are all an interesting discussion, but one that should be able to be had in a civil manner - don't you think?
People's inability to allow comparisons to be made without getting their panties in a bunch, without claiming that such comparisons are disrespectful, idiotic, etc., IMHO, is childish, and I'll explain why...
We are humans. We compare and contrast. That's what we do...mostly because we have the intelligence and insights to do so. Bitching at people because they do what humans do is like yelling at birds because they fly or chirp.
Pray for those killed, for those that lost homes, for those that will be affected for months, years.
Now, for my comparison -The MAJOR difference between this and Katrina is that in my mind, those areas that were hit the worst, the hardest, will be rebuilt in months and probably within the next year. We won't see a half-decade later of block after block of vacant homes, torn up areas, etc. I suspect the reasons. Pride, money, a difference in ethics, etc. Go ahead - shoot me.
TJR
Hurricane Sandy was bad. The damage caused in many places did in fact rival examples of damages from Katrina. Whether or not the widespread damage is the same, the total lost in dollars, lives, etc, the same are all an interesting discussion, but one that should be able to be had in a civil manner - don't you think?
People's inability to allow comparisons to be made without getting their panties in a bunch, without claiming that such comparisons are disrespectful, idiotic, etc., IMHO, is childish, and I'll explain why...
We are humans. We compare and contrast. That's what we do...mostly because we have the intelligence and insights to do so. Bitching at people because they do what humans do is like yelling at birds because they fly or chirp.
Pray for those killed, for those that lost homes, for those that will be affected for months, years.
Now, for my comparison -The MAJOR difference between this and Katrina is that in my mind, those areas that were hit the worst, the hardest, will be rebuilt in months and probably within the next year. We won't see a half-decade later of block after block of vacant homes, torn up areas, etc. I suspect the reasons. Pride, money, a difference in ethics, etc. Go ahead - shoot me.
TJR
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TJR,
I agree that is is human nature to want to compare things since that is how we can wrap our minds around the enormity of some things, however we do not even know the enormity of the damage and lives lost to Sandy. As the clean up continues, they will undoubtedly find more bodies, and early estimates of the damage will be eclipsed by each new estimate. It will probably be years before we have an accurate assessment of the total cost of damages.
So my question is: What is the purpose of making comparisons of Sandy to Katrina, to Andrew, or to the Japanese Tsunami? They all happened at different times, different locations and the costs in property damage and human lives was enormous.
If you only compare property damage, you may be ignoring the loss of life. Remember that Sandy killed an estimated 50 people (in Jamaica and Cuba) before it ever got to the US.
If you only look at the loss of lives, then you ignore the tremendous upheaval to the lives of those who survived and are now faced with the enormous task of rebuilding their lives.
Katrina hit the New Orleans area on August 30, 2005. Seven years later there are still many signs of that devastation...and I suspect in another 7 years there will still be many visible reminders of Katrina's destruction.
To imply that the long rebuilding process from Katrina is based on Pride or Ethics is kind of a slap in the face to the people who live in the area impacted by Katrina.
That is exactly why I think comparison of these kinds of disasters is disrespectful and implies that the victims of one disaster suffered more than the victims of the other disaster....or it was their own fault, or that it was someone else's fault. Just wait, The blame game will start soon enough and every one will be pointing fingers at everyone else.
Consider yourself Shot!:fire:
...Rich
I agree that is is human nature to want to compare things since that is how we can wrap our minds around the enormity of some things, however we do not even know the enormity of the damage and lives lost to Sandy. As the clean up continues, they will undoubtedly find more bodies, and early estimates of the damage will be eclipsed by each new estimate. It will probably be years before we have an accurate assessment of the total cost of damages.
So my question is: What is the purpose of making comparisons of Sandy to Katrina, to Andrew, or to the Japanese Tsunami? They all happened at different times, different locations and the costs in property damage and human lives was enormous.
If you only compare property damage, you may be ignoring the loss of life. Remember that Sandy killed an estimated 50 people (in Jamaica and Cuba) before it ever got to the US.
If you only look at the loss of lives, then you ignore the tremendous upheaval to the lives of those who survived and are now faced with the enormous task of rebuilding their lives.
Katrina hit the New Orleans area on August 30, 2005. Seven years later there are still many signs of that devastation...and I suspect in another 7 years there will still be many visible reminders of Katrina's destruction.
To imply that the long rebuilding process from Katrina is based on Pride or Ethics is kind of a slap in the face to the people who live in the area impacted by Katrina.
That is exactly why I think comparison of these kinds of disasters is disrespectful and implies that the victims of one disaster suffered more than the victims of the other disaster....or it was their own fault, or that it was someone else's fault. Just wait, The blame game will start soon enough and every one will be pointing fingers at everyone else.
Consider yourself Shot!:fire:
...Rich
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Richard L,
As an engineer I don't tend to concern myself with subtle implications, inferences, or conclusions that people might draw from what is specifically stated that might in turn be deemed as disrespectful, hurtful, etc.
As an engineer and as someone who considers himself a deliberate communicator, I moreso concern myself with what I and others actually, specifically say and what I can directly take as their meaning from what is said.
People can SAY things specifically that are disrespectful. For example, saying something like:
"Hurrican Sandy victims will pick themselves up and rebuild sooner than Katrina victims because unlike Katrina victims they didn't consider themselves 'victims' before the storm and they won't wait for someone else to come along and fix their problem!"
That would be uncalled for and disrepectful, and I would say that the intent in the above actually was to belittle and to disrespect.
However, to compare aspects of Katrina, to Sandy, or vice-versa, is in itself not disrespectful, no more than two doctors discussing the respective damages caused by a 22 and a bazooka are. Sure, aspects of both are incomparable; but there may be similarities that are worth discussing. The fact that they are different, yet discussed, doesn't necessarily mean disrespect to one or the other sufferers.
I think one of the major down-falls of our society is political correctness. People can't seem to talk critically about most things anymore. Seems there are no bad teachers anymore. No bad children. No losers and therefore no winners. You can't expect "more" from anyone, and, now, we certainly can't compare one bad event with another without those that suffered one or the other thinking we are disrespecting them.
Trust me, folks, when I INTENTIONALLY disrespect you, well, you will know it.
I am sure the reasons for comparing vary from person to person making the comparisons. Why not simply ASK them why they feel the comparison is valid/necessary to better understand what they are trying to say instead of assuming there is disrespectful intentions or inferences. You may find out you are right, the other person is an asshat. You may find out they are making a good point or conclusion.
TJR
As an engineer I don't tend to concern myself with subtle implications, inferences, or conclusions that people might draw from what is specifically stated that might in turn be deemed as disrespectful, hurtful, etc.
As an engineer and as someone who considers himself a deliberate communicator, I moreso concern myself with what I and others actually, specifically say and what I can directly take as their meaning from what is said.
People can SAY things specifically that are disrespectful. For example, saying something like:
"Hurrican Sandy victims will pick themselves up and rebuild sooner than Katrina victims because unlike Katrina victims they didn't consider themselves 'victims' before the storm and they won't wait for someone else to come along and fix their problem!"
That would be uncalled for and disrepectful, and I would say that the intent in the above actually was to belittle and to disrespect.
However, to compare aspects of Katrina, to Sandy, or vice-versa, is in itself not disrespectful, no more than two doctors discussing the respective damages caused by a 22 and a bazooka are. Sure, aspects of both are incomparable; but there may be similarities that are worth discussing. The fact that they are different, yet discussed, doesn't necessarily mean disrespect to one or the other sufferers.
I think one of the major down-falls of our society is political correctness. People can't seem to talk critically about most things anymore. Seems there are no bad teachers anymore. No bad children. No losers and therefore no winners. You can't expect "more" from anyone, and, now, we certainly can't compare one bad event with another without those that suffered one or the other thinking we are disrespecting them.
Trust me, folks, when I INTENTIONALLY disrespect you, well, you will know it.
I am sure the reasons for comparing vary from person to person making the comparisons. Why not simply ASK them why they feel the comparison is valid/necessary to better understand what they are trying to say instead of assuming there is disrespectful intentions or inferences. You may find out you are right, the other person is an asshat. You may find out they are making a good point or conclusion.
TJR
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I do feel that there is VALUE in comparing Sandy and Katrina. Yes, the scale of the two events were far different; yes the loss in life and property between the two were far different.
However, aspects of comparing one versus the other, from aspects related to preparedness, population densities affected, areas affected, response, and recovery will all be worth comparing as we look at how best to deal with and rebuild after events like these in the future.
I don't feel there is much value in a "we suffered more than you" pissing contest, however.
TJR
However, aspects of comparing one versus the other, from aspects related to preparedness, population densities affected, areas affected, response, and recovery will all be worth comparing as we look at how best to deal with and rebuild after events like these in the future.
I don't feel there is much value in a "we suffered more than you" pissing contest, however.
TJR
TJR,
I did not say that anyone was intentionally being disrespectful, but statements that attempt to compare different disasters, especially right after it happens, are not necessary or valid from the perspective of those who are trying to put their lives back together. So it's pointless to ask someone why they are making a comparison. I simply think it is disrespectful and poor manners to start making comparisons to other disasters while people are still trying to recover.
Unless you were unfortunate to have been in the area effected by multiple disasters like Sandy and Katrina, or Andrew, your comparisons are based on nothing but what you saw on the news media.
You are free to voice your opinion, and I am free to voice mine.
No hard feelings that we disagree....:haveabeer:
...Rich
I did not say that anyone was intentionally being disrespectful, but statements that attempt to compare different disasters, especially right after it happens, are not necessary or valid from the perspective of those who are trying to put their lives back together. So it's pointless to ask someone why they are making a comparison. I simply think it is disrespectful and poor manners to start making comparisons to other disasters while people are still trying to recover.
Unless you were unfortunate to have been in the area effected by multiple disasters like Sandy and Katrina, or Andrew, your comparisons are based on nothing but what you saw on the news media.
You are free to voice your opinion, and I am free to voice mine.
No hard feelings that we disagree....:haveabeer:
...Rich
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Bill V
Well-Known Member
Thanks, TJR--finally someone who gets it.
Going even one step further--"comparing and contrasting" is not only "what humans do", but it's one of the primary means by which humans learn. We experience events, and we compare them to other events to determine the lessons we can learn from those differences. And from that perspective, not only isn't comparing and contrasting disrespectful or poor manners, but it's an important step in the development of our knowledge base as a species.
Going even one step further--"comparing and contrasting" is not only "what humans do", but it's one of the primary means by which humans learn. We experience events, and we compare them to other events to determine the lessons we can learn from those differences. And from that perspective, not only isn't comparing and contrasting disrespectful or poor manners, but it's an important step in the development of our knowledge base as a species.
Bill V,
I think it is disrespectful and poor manners, even if you don't. If you were not present or involved in any of these disasters, your comparison is pointless and may offend those who lived through it.
If you saw sombody walking down the street with an obvious facial disfigurement, would you compare them to other disfigured people?
Time will come when when the Federal and State governments and other agencies will release actual damage costs and lives lost, and then the comparisons will begin.
Unless you live in the path of Sandy, you have no idea of the devastation and your comparison does nothing to help, and may be deemed by some to be premature and disrespectful. Let the people have their time to heal, absorb the entire scope of the devastation and begin the rebuilding process,before anyone starts making comparisons as to which disaster was worse!
In fact the blame game has already started! I just saw Michael Moore on TV blaming the meteorologist for their not giving enough warning about the true dangers of hurricane Sandy.....As if weather forcasting was an exact science??? I even heard that one country fired some of their scientists because they could not predict a recent earthquake? I guess the world's society assumes that what ever happens, it's somebody's fault!
....Rich
I think it is disrespectful and poor manners, even if you don't. If you were not present or involved in any of these disasters, your comparison is pointless and may offend those who lived through it.
If you saw sombody walking down the street with an obvious facial disfigurement, would you compare them to other disfigured people?
Time will come when when the Federal and State governments and other agencies will release actual damage costs and lives lost, and then the comparisons will begin.
Unless you live in the path of Sandy, you have no idea of the devastation and your comparison does nothing to help, and may be deemed by some to be premature and disrespectful. Let the people have their time to heal, absorb the entire scope of the devastation and begin the rebuilding process,before anyone starts making comparisons as to which disaster was worse!
In fact the blame game has already started! I just saw Michael Moore on TV blaming the meteorologist for their not giving enough warning about the true dangers of hurricane Sandy.....As if weather forcasting was an exact science??? I even heard that one country fired some of their scientists because they could not predict a recent earthquake? I guess the world's society assumes that what ever happens, it's somebody's fault!
....Rich
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Richard L,
You mentioned the blame game twice now, at least. I don't see anyone here starting that discussion. Actually, as I consider Sandy, I see just the opposite happening. Most handled the situation well, and the only real example I saw of anyone blaming someone else for mishandling anything is the way that Christie got all bent out of shape with the AC mayor for not forcing evacs. Other than that, it's been pretty much kudos all around on the prep for, execution during, and recovery from Sandy.
BTW, I *DO* live in the path of where Sandy made landfall. I hunkered down and puckered up through several hours of sustained 60mph winds with gusts over 80mph, all on water-soaked/logged ground. It was bad, worst I have seen anywhere I have lived in the northeast, but nothing in comparison to what those in tornado and hurricane country have to deal with, but still, a very big deal in this area, nonetheless.
I don't think the comparisons should be forbotten, nor do I think that they are inheriently disrespectful, regardless the anologies to the contrary. We can agree to disagree. I prefer to deal with real, blatant, purposeful issues of disrespect, intolerance, etc.
P.S. Overhead a CINO (Christian in name only) talking while eating at the nearby McDonalds and how he sees this as a "wakeup call" for this area, from God, given to tell us all to repent for our sinful ways. Seems God focused his wrath on this area due to the sin and wickedness of AC, Philly, the Jersey Shore. Now, this guy quoted a lot of Bible verses, but I guess he forgot the ones in which God said he would never again send a cleansing flood, or that he doesn't punish people for their sins.
I was most disturbed by this guy, and the fact that he then went on to say he was going to homeschool his soon to be school aged kids because of the poor/sinful public schools in our area. BTW, the schools in my area are tops in the country. He disturbed me more than any comparison to Katrina and Sandy. But, then again, I let it roll off my back, because, a. he wasn't talking to me., and b. he had no ill-will or malice in what he said. and c. you can't fix stupid!
TJR
You mentioned the blame game twice now, at least. I don't see anyone here starting that discussion. Actually, as I consider Sandy, I see just the opposite happening. Most handled the situation well, and the only real example I saw of anyone blaming someone else for mishandling anything is the way that Christie got all bent out of shape with the AC mayor for not forcing evacs. Other than that, it's been pretty much kudos all around on the prep for, execution during, and recovery from Sandy.
BTW, I *DO* live in the path of where Sandy made landfall. I hunkered down and puckered up through several hours of sustained 60mph winds with gusts over 80mph, all on water-soaked/logged ground. It was bad, worst I have seen anywhere I have lived in the northeast, but nothing in comparison to what those in tornado and hurricane country have to deal with, but still, a very big deal in this area, nonetheless.
I don't think the comparisons should be forbotten, nor do I think that they are inheriently disrespectful, regardless the anologies to the contrary. We can agree to disagree. I prefer to deal with real, blatant, purposeful issues of disrespect, intolerance, etc.
P.S. Overhead a CINO (Christian in name only) talking while eating at the nearby McDonalds and how he sees this as a "wakeup call" for this area, from God, given to tell us all to repent for our sinful ways. Seems God focused his wrath on this area due to the sin and wickedness of AC, Philly, the Jersey Shore. Now, this guy quoted a lot of Bible verses, but I guess he forgot the ones in which God said he would never again send a cleansing flood, or that he doesn't punish people for their sins.
I was most disturbed by this guy, and the fact that he then went on to say he was going to homeschool his soon to be school aged kids because of the poor/sinful public schools in our area. BTW, the schools in my area are tops in the country. He disturbed me more than any comparison to Katrina and Sandy. But, then again, I let it roll off my back, because, a. he wasn't talking to me., and b. he had no ill-will or malice in what he said. and c. you can't fix stupid!
TJR
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V,
I'll take your one step further even one step further. We compare, contrast, and classify to make sense of things. We assign meaning and understanding to knowing things like that the loss in dollars due to Sandy is around $20B, and Katrina over $100B; or the # of square miles impacted by each; or the people displaced; or the lives lost. Comparing and contrasting recovery and rebuild times has meaning as well.
These things help us in any number of ways; even if only to understand and put in perspective the enormity of events, even as they compare to each other.
TJR
I'll take your one step further even one step further. We compare, contrast, and classify to make sense of things. We assign meaning and understanding to knowing things like that the loss in dollars due to Sandy is around $20B, and Katrina over $100B; or the # of square miles impacted by each; or the people displaced; or the lives lost. Comparing and contrasting recovery and rebuild times has meaning as well.
These things help us in any number of ways; even if only to understand and put in perspective the enormity of events, even as they compare to each other.
TJR
Bill V
Well-Known Member
There you go again, assuming that all comparisons made about Sandy to any other storm or other event have to be regarding which one is "worse"! THAT SIMPLY ISN'T THE CASE!!!
If someone were to say that one difference between Katrina and Sandy is that one went through the Gulf of Mexico, and the other didn't, that's a comparison. How is that possibly disrespectful to anyone?
Or what about saying that because of the timing of the hurricanes, Sandy is more likely to have a direct impact on a presidential election than Katrina, because Katrina didn't occur in an election year. It's most definitely a comparison--but not the slightest bit disrespectful.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V said;
Agreed. Obama is enjoying a bump in the polls, and Gov Christie is arguably looking forward to another 4 years with Obama and his own run in 2016. The timing of Sandy was helpful to Obama.
TJR
Agreed. Obama is enjoying a bump in the polls, and Gov Christie is arguably looking forward to another 4 years with Obama and his own run in 2016. The timing of Sandy was helpful to Obama.
TJR
Bill V,
I never said that your comparison implied that one was worse than the other, but the assumption that some will compare these disasters and attempt to make that premature judgement based on photos and media reports is very real because it has always happened in the past with every new disaster.
As to whether Sandy will have any impact on the election is not a comparison since Katrina did not happen in an election year....It's much too early in the clean up process, and too close to the election to even make that call.... That's why I said that all these disasters happened at a different time, and a different location and should not be compared until all the facts are in and that may take years.
...Rich
I never said that your comparison implied that one was worse than the other, but the assumption that some will compare these disasters and attempt to make that premature judgement based on photos and media reports is very real because it has always happened in the past with every new disaster.
As to whether Sandy will have any impact on the election is not a comparison since Katrina did not happen in an election year....It's much too early in the clean up process, and too close to the election to even make that call.... That's why I said that all these disasters happened at a different time, and a different location and should not be compared until all the facts are in and that may take years.
...Rich
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
BTW, it was just announced. The NYC marathon has been cancelled.
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Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
I can't believe that it was ever scheduled to go on in the first place. I think there are some PR people who are inept at their job employed by both it and NYC since they neither understood that the public would balk at the marathon nor could they put a spin on the issue so the public would buy it. I guess they missed the "zeitgeist" of class warfare.
I think it is interesting that there are still people in the vicinity of NYC (the largest and "greatest" American city) and New Jersey (the most densely populated and one of the "wealthiest" states in America) are still without power, food, assistance (despite the NJ Governor and the US President being on-site) and are having brawls and mile-long queues at gas stations days after the storm struck. Not only can Mayor Bloomberg, who famously claimed that he has the "seventh largest army in the world" can help out his tiny Staten island or stop the brazen looting in his city.
The snarky side of me can't help but notice that despite NY and NJ being heinously anti-gun there have still been guns involved in these incidents.
The state of New Orleans now doesn't surprise me, personally, as much as the current state of NYC/NH does.
I think it is interesting that there are still people in the vicinity of NYC (the largest and "greatest" American city) and New Jersey (the most densely populated and one of the "wealthiest" states in America) are still without power, food, assistance (despite the NJ Governor and the US President being on-site) and are having brawls and mile-long queues at gas stations days after the storm struck. Not only can Mayor Bloomberg, who famously claimed that he has the "seventh largest army in the world" can help out his tiny Staten island or stop the brazen looting in his city.
The snarky side of me can't help but notice that despite NY and NJ being heinously anti-gun there have still been guns involved in these incidents.
The state of New Orleans now doesn't surprise me, personally, as much as the current state of NYC/NH does.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
KL,
I think it was good old NYC greed and hubris that kept the NYC marathon scheduled as planned for so long. Ultimately, the right call was made, though it should have been made days earlier. This was not a "if we cancel it then Sandy has won" kind of decision, though for days that prideful sentiment was the general reason/excuse given for going forward as planned by Bloomberg. Ultimately, he recognized he couldn't "save face" if the race took place.
I think it was good old NYC greed and hubris that kept the NYC marathon scheduled as planned for so long. Ultimately, the right call was made, though it should have been made days earlier. This was not a "if we cancel it then Sandy has won" kind of decision, though for days that prideful sentiment was the general reason/excuse given for going forward as planned by Bloomberg. Ultimately, he recognized he couldn't "save face" if the race took place.
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gary s
Well-Known Member
this is f'in horrible!!!!!!!
come here and look first hand.
you can t believe the damage and agony
come here and look first hand.
you can t believe the damage and agony
