Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
...and when President Bush heard the news he said: "Oh my! Is Alabama okay?"
Seriously, though, things are getting interesting.
TJR
Seriously, though, things are getting interesting.
TJR
OT: Russia commences air strike against Georgia....
- Thread starter Thomas Rogers
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George T
Well-Known Member
Really not good. Im worried since Im from Georgia(not the one in the US) and dont want to see my country destroyed
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Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
Here we go again, so. georgia is a major crude oil pipeline for U.S crude oil imports.
the U.S gov, is saying we need to take an active role in mediating this conflict.
just what we need at this time.
The U.S, the great mediators, what a joke, reminds me of the so called advisors we had in nam in the early 60s.
the U.S gov, is saying we need to take an active role in mediating this conflict.
just what we need at this time.
The U.S, the great mediators, what a joke, reminds me of the so called advisors we had in nam in the early 60s.
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
George T,
I hope any family you have there is safe.
I hope any family you have there is safe.
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I've always felt that Putin has a master plan to take things back to the good ole days of the U.S.S.R. Once KGB, always KGB....IMO!
And Bill, another good reason to start drilling in our own side of the world. I know it's not a cure but could buy us some time to get other technologies going. Like Glenn Beck says....we need to have an "energy moonshot". Give energy in this country the same priority that JFK gave the moonshot in the early 60's.
And George, I too hope any relatives you have in Georgia are safe and out of harms way.
Gary G
And Bill, another good reason to start drilling in our own side of the world. I know it's not a cure but could buy us some time to get other technologies going. Like Glenn Beck says....we need to have an "energy moonshot". Give energy in this country the same priority that JFK gave the moonshot in the early 60's.
And George, I too hope any relatives you have in Georgia are safe and out of harms way.
Gary G
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George T
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
It really is a tough situation. Here on one side of the World, we support Georgia's aim to keep their breakaway regions within their borders. In China, we are encouraging Tibet's independence. Sovereign nations typically are allowed to do whatever they want within their borders, but we are often found meddling into internal affairs. Now Russia has begun to do the same. How do we react without being hypocrites?
This issue needs to be resolved before Georgia joins NATO. If Georgia were already in NATO, we would automatically be drawn into the conflict by our obligation to protect any member from attack. It's a very dangerous situation. We could easily be drawn into a war between NATO and Russia.
The past decade NATO has been very eager to welcome these small former Soviet states, but I am not sure they fully considered the ramifications. There are already NATO countries which have similar concerns, such a Estonia. They have a large Russian population as well. Also something to consider is Russia's Kaliningrad Oblast, which is wedged between Lithuania and Poland. It was separated from the rest of Russia when the Baltic states won independence. Now that Russia has regained it's power after the breakup of the USSR, they are trying to bring these former minions back into the fold.
This issue needs to be resolved before Georgia joins NATO. If Georgia were already in NATO, we would automatically be drawn into the conflict by our obligation to protect any member from attack. It's a very dangerous situation. We could easily be drawn into a war between NATO and Russia.
The past decade NATO has been very eager to welcome these small former Soviet states, but I am not sure they fully considered the ramifications. There are already NATO countries which have similar concerns, such a Estonia. They have a large Russian population as well. Also something to consider is Russia's Kaliningrad Oblast, which is wedged between Lithuania and Poland. It was separated from the rest of Russia when the Baltic states won independence. Now that Russia has regained it's power after the breakup of the USSR, they are trying to bring these former minions back into the fold.
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Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
Just my humble opinion, but if we let Russia do this to Georgia, Ukraine will be next.
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
Where is Frank to tell us that it's Bush and Cheney's fault?
Timmy-The-Ute
Active Member
Remember to read Ezekiel 38-39 tonight to get a heads up on where this is all heading.
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
I'm just glad we have someone that is not weak and wishy-washy in the CINC's office right now. Hopefully, this will just blow over and not become something much bigger.
Alex Marchenko
Member
NelsonOKC,
Georgia started an offensive against South Ossetia on Thursday killing civilians and russian peacekeepers which are stationed there in accordance with 1991 peace deal. Russia retaliated hard, as US would and did many times to protect its interests.
So tell me how is it relevant to Ukraine and why it will be next?
Being a ukrainian myself, I don't appreciate Russia's ambition to keep their former "younger brothers" under control, but in this situation, I'm having hard time understanding why Georgia decided to provoke this conflict and what did it expect in return.
Georgia started an offensive against South Ossetia on Thursday killing civilians and russian peacekeepers which are stationed there in accordance with 1991 peace deal. Russia retaliated hard, as US would and did many times to protect its interests.
So tell me how is it relevant to Ukraine and why it will be next?
Being a ukrainian myself, I don't appreciate Russia's ambition to keep their former "younger brothers" under control, but in this situation, I'm having hard time understanding why Georgia decided to provoke this conflict and what did it expect in return.
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
Georgia and Ukraine are both in line to be brought into NATO soon. Russia doesn't want this and now is powerful enough to assert control over this region, because they provide the bulk of fuel to Europe. Western countries won't get involved because they need Russia's oil and they are afraid of bringing Russia's wrath upon themselves.
As you probably know, Ukraine is also a country which provides a conduit for Russia's oil transports. Yesterday they threatened to block Russian ships from returning to their bases through the Crimea. You know as well as I do that if Ukraine blocks passage of Russia's ships, there will be hell to pay.
If you are a student of history, Russia's behaviour to this point is similar to Germany's at the beginning of WWII. They attempted a peace agreement but then attacked a sovereign nation. Russia has no interest within the borders of Georgia -- it is not Russia's business what happens inside of Georgian borders. If they are concerned about their citizens, then they should evacuate them. Georgia should have expelled them long ago.
Putin is tightening his control over Russia. He is nationalizing the oil industry. He recently took control of BP's joint venture with Russia. He is bring back the Soviet-style central control of resources. People who go up against him suddenly disappear or are found dead. The more he gets away with, the more bold he becomes. Ukraine is a logical next step.
As you probably know, Ukraine is also a country which provides a conduit for Russia's oil transports. Yesterday they threatened to block Russian ships from returning to their bases through the Crimea. You know as well as I do that if Ukraine blocks passage of Russia's ships, there will be hell to pay.
If you are a student of history, Russia's behaviour to this point is similar to Germany's at the beginning of WWII. They attempted a peace agreement but then attacked a sovereign nation. Russia has no interest within the borders of Georgia -- it is not Russia's business what happens inside of Georgian borders. If they are concerned about their citizens, then they should evacuate them. Georgia should have expelled them long ago.
Putin is tightening his control over Russia. He is nationalizing the oil industry. He recently took control of BP's joint venture with Russia. He is bring back the Soviet-style central control of resources. People who go up against him suddenly disappear or are found dead. The more he gets away with, the more bold he becomes. Ukraine is a logical next step.
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
Georgia and Ukraine are both in line to be brought into NATO soon. Russia doesn't want this and now is powerful enough to assert control over this region, because they provide the bulk of fuel to Europe. Western countries won't get involved because they need Russia's oil and they are afraid of bringing Russia's wrath upon themselves.
As you probably know, Ukraine is also a country which provides a conduit for Russia's oil transports. Yesterday they threatened to block Russian ships from returning to their bases through the Crimea. You know as well as I do that if Ukraine blocks passage of Russia's ships, there will be hell to pay.
If you are a student of history, Russia's behaviour to this point is similar to Germany's at the beginning of WWII. They attempted a peace agreement but then attacked a sovereign nation. Russia has no interest within the borders of Georgia -- it is not Russia's business what happens inside of Georgian borders. If they are concerned about their citizens, then they should evacuate them. Georgia should have expelled them long ago.
Putin is tightening his control over Russia. He is nationalizing the oil industry. He recently took control of BP's joint venture with Russia. He is bring back the Soviet-style central control of resources. People who go up against him suddenly disappear or are found dead. The more he gets away with, the more bold he becomes. Ukraine is a logical next step.
As you probably know, Ukraine is also a country which provides a conduit for Russia's oil transports. Yesterday they threatened to block Russian ships from returning to their bases through the Crimea. You know as well as I do that if Ukraine blocks passage of Russia's ships, there will be hell to pay.
If you are a student of history, Russia's behaviour to this point is similar to Germany's at the beginning of WWII. They attempted a peace agreement but then attacked a sovereign nation. Russia has no interest within the borders of Georgia -- it is not Russia's business what happens inside of Georgian borders. If they are concerned about their citizens, then they should evacuate them. Georgia should have expelled them long ago.
Putin is tightening his control over Russia. He is nationalizing the oil industry. He recently took control of BP's joint venture with Russia. He is bring back the Soviet-style central control of resources. People who go up against him suddenly disappear or are found dead. The more he gets away with, the more bold he becomes. Ukraine is a logical next step.
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Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
Nelson
Above you state (If we let russia do this to georgia)
Just what is the west to do? Russia is back, they are no longer bankrupt (3rd largest economy in the world)
I hope cool heads prevail as thier Military might is probebly at this point better than ours.
Putin is showing the world that Russia is back as a major world power.
Russia has been dissed bigtime since the fall of the USSR, especially by the west.
And they are pissed.
What right do's the U.S have to condem Russia for as Bush says, this brutal act.
Did the U.S confer with Russia prior to us invaiding Iraq (No)
What we do not need at this time is sword rattling, that will start the cold war all over again.
Having gone thru the last one, I do not want to see that crap again.
Let the russians deal with russians, we have no Buis in that program.
Above you state (If we let russia do this to georgia)
Just what is the west to do? Russia is back, they are no longer bankrupt (3rd largest economy in the world)
I hope cool heads prevail as thier Military might is probebly at this point better than ours.
Putin is showing the world that Russia is back as a major world power.
Russia has been dissed bigtime since the fall of the USSR, especially by the west.
And they are pissed.
What right do's the U.S have to condem Russia for as Bush says, this brutal act.
Did the U.S confer with Russia prior to us invaiding Iraq (No)
What we do not need at this time is sword rattling, that will start the cold war all over again.
Having gone thru the last one, I do not want to see that crap again.
Let the russians deal with russians, we have no Buis in that program.
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
I'm with you Bill. I wouldn't want to see another Cold War either, but if it happens we cannot be weak-kneed about protecting ourselves or our allies. Georgians are not Russians. They are more like Turks.
Alex Marchenko
Member
Nelson, while I understand your sentiment toward Russia and Putin and somewhat agree with your overall assessment, I must say that in this particular instance Russia is well within its right to kick Georgia for what they did in Ossetia. NATO (as well as US I would imagine) told Georgia's president not to escalate Ossetia and Abkhazia’s conflicts, but instead he started a full blown campaign, pretty much flattened capital of Ossetia and killed who knows how many people, all for what? Delivering on election promises?...Sounds too hot headed for a president of a "democratic" country. Now the thing is, this conflict is exactly what Russia needed and got the opportunity to put Georgia back 5 years as well as let NATO know that Georgia is not ready for the membership (liability). While Georgia got a reality check. So again, what the hell Sahaashvili tired to accomplish?...
Also, osettins are not russians or even slavic people, they are turks and ethnically are closer to Georgians then to russians, this people lived there for a long-long time and just happened not to want to be part of Georgia, so do they have the right to get out (Kosovars did!)? I don't know, but they certainly have the right not to be bombed by Georgia and they have right to be protected (as mandated by UN). So is it Russia's business to protect their allies and peacekeepers from getting killed in their backyard? Is it fair for ossetins to get expelled by Georgia that didn't give anything to this people for the past 14 years?... No simple answers there.
Ukraine is always at odds with Russia, historically there's lots of antagonism, but the problem is, when push comes to shove, Ukraine is better off being a friend with close and big Russia then an enemy, because for all intense and purposes US (or NATO) will not provide any real protection. And Ukrainian government knows it very well (I think that’s where Sahaashvili got it wrong). So, while Ukraine makes these courageous statements about not letting ships back to Sevastopol base, it’s all just a PR - saving a face for US, EU and NATO, nothing more.
Also, osettins are not russians or even slavic people, they are turks and ethnically are closer to Georgians then to russians, this people lived there for a long-long time and just happened not to want to be part of Georgia, so do they have the right to get out (Kosovars did!)? I don't know, but they certainly have the right not to be bombed by Georgia and they have right to be protected (as mandated by UN). So is it Russia's business to protect their allies and peacekeepers from getting killed in their backyard? Is it fair for ossetins to get expelled by Georgia that didn't give anything to this people for the past 14 years?... No simple answers there.
Ukraine is always at odds with Russia, historically there's lots of antagonism, but the problem is, when push comes to shove, Ukraine is better off being a friend with close and big Russia then an enemy, because for all intense and purposes US (or NATO) will not provide any real protection. And Ukrainian government knows it very well (I think that’s where Sahaashvili got it wrong). So, while Ukraine makes these courageous statements about not letting ships back to Sevastopol base, it’s all just a PR - saving a face for US, EU and NATO, nothing more.
Alex Marchenko
Member
Below is a link to a good analysis of this short war. Bottom line is, Georgia's leader over-estimated his importance to the US, ruined any chance of Georgia or Ukraine to get into NATO (for better or worse) any time soon, and allowed Russia execute its long prepared plan to take control over oil pipeline on Caucasus...This whole war, almost looks staged, if you ask me.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Georgia has now been properly punished.
Russia can go back to gaining tight control of oil and natural gas to Europe so that they can bring Europe to its knees economically.
The next Cold War is already being waged, and it is being fought economically. So far, the US is not doing so well, and we are going to also be on our knees very soon, too.
BAAAAAAA! BAAAAAAAA!
Carry on, Sheeple.
Russia can go back to gaining tight control of oil and natural gas to Europe so that they can bring Europe to its knees economically.
The next Cold War is already being waged, and it is being fought economically. So far, the US is not doing so well, and we are going to also be on our knees very soon, too.
BAAAAAAA! BAAAAAAAA!
Carry on, Sheeple.
