New Tranny or V8 swap??

[Travis Munday]

While searching for something else, I found this info:

<table>

<tr>

<td>Engine Family</td>

<td>LxWxH in inches, without carburetor.</td>

<td>Weight in Lbs.</td>

</tr>



<tr>

<td>221-260-289-302</td>

<td><center>29 x 24 x 27.5</center></td>

<td>460</td>

</tr>



<tr>

<td>4.6L SOHC or DOHC</td>

<td><center>36 x 36 x 44</center></td>

<td>600</td>

</tr>

</table>



Oh, yeah, this site hates tables...

 

[Tom Schindler]

Many people here have been clammering for Ford to put a V8 in the Sport Trac. It took Ford 6 model years to do it and then only after they changed to the new Explorer chassis. Surely somewhere in the country, someone would have bolted a V8 in the Sport Trac if it could be done.

How do you know it hasn't been done? Just because 10,000 or so people that joined this website does not say we are a majority. At an average of 70,000 Tracs a year were built over a period of 6 years says there were about 420,000 Trac's built. 10,000 owners here is about 2% of all owners. Just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean it doesn't exist or can't be done.



Ford did not build a V8 that would fit in a Sport Trac. The 302 is the only engine that would fit in an Explorer Chassis. The 4.6L engine is too big. You know that as well as I do. What V8 could Ford have put in a Sport Trac? What engine could have fit?



Lets look at the type of people that buy an ST. Are many of those people willing to pull a perfectly good engine out of a nice body to put in a V8? I know I am not. Rangers can be purchased for next to nothing. A used 4 cylinder Ranger just a few years old can be purchased cheap. Plus, they are light and can be built to be very fast. The same cn not be said for the Sprt Trac. Even a 2001 Trac in good condition with 100,000 miles is still worth over $6,000.00 A Ranger, the same year is much cheaper at only $4,000.00. Lets not forget a v8 in a Ranger will be more fun thn the same engine in a Sport Trac.



A 302 will fit in a Miata.



Tiger, can you find the dimentions of the 4.0L SOHC engine?





Tom

 

[Travis Munday]

I couldn't find the 4.0 dimensions. They have to be published somewhere, probably a tech manual somewhere.

 

[Fudged Undies]

I think the one side of this that no one is looking at, isn't whether it can or cannot be done but who really wants to sacrifice a vehicle, that for most of us, is a daily driver and not to mention the fact that hasn't really been abused enough to warrant that type of upgrade. I'm not sure, but I don't think there are too many rangers that have had a v8 swap and payments are still being made on them. I see that as being a major hurdle. Making payments on a car and chopping it up to do a swap like this. Not very bright, unless that was the purpose. Not to mention having another ride while this one is out of commission. A few more years when there are plenty of these around and this will be more of a reality. But it's still near impossible to buy a trac for a couple thousand dollars. Therein lies the problem imo.

 

[Richard L]

Caymen,

What are you so angry about?? I said that the Ford did not build any V8's that would fit into a Sport or Sport Trac, and you just agreed with me, So what's your point.???



You want to argue so much, you are not making any sense. You tend to always do that when you don't know how to respond, you change the subject. All your previous arguments were about the rear disc brake conversion. You said the Ford engineer said it was impossible, but they only said "They did not recommend just taking the parts of an Explorer". Then I think you got mad that I said that you converted your Sport Trac to rear disc brake using a kit. My point was only that the existence of a bolt on kit would indicate that it is possible, and whoever developed the kit has done it!



As for the number of Sport Trac owners. The roughly 12K members here are some of the most knowledgable Sport Trac owner in the country. If the number of people who wanted a v8 in their Sport Trac knew that either the 4.6 or 5.0 V8 would just bolt right in, someone would have done it. But then again, a lot of members wanted rear disc brakes on their early Sport Trac and there is a kit available, but you appear to be the only one who has done it.



Perhaps the members who wanted the V8 so bad just decided to wait and buy a 2007 model Sport Trac, since it's cheaper and comes with a warranty?



I don't care if you or anyone thinks a 4.6 or 5.0 V8 will fit the Sport Trac or not. I am stating my opinion based on what the engineers at Ford said, coupled with the fact that I have not seen anyone do it YET! That does not mean it hasn't been done, but the fact that knowbody has evidence of anyone who has done this "Simple bolt in" engine swap to a Sport Trac convinces me that perhaps the engineer where right.



I do beleive a V8 like the 4.6 or 5.0 could be made to fit. But that may make the swap too expensive for the minimal HP gained. I just don't believe that either engine can just be bolted in with out making custom parts, finding differnt parts that will fit, or making chassis modifications, and in the end street drivablility may suffer, and it may not be legal in some states.



...Rich

 

[Tom Schindler]

I said that the Ford did not build any V8's that would fit into a Sport or Sport Trac, and you just agreed with me, So what's your point.???

Ford did build a V8 that will fit. The production ended in 2001. That is why a V8 was not available until the 2007 Sport Trac. You said that is why a V8 wond't fit, but that is not the reason.

My point was only that the existence of a bolt on kit would indicate that it is possible, and whoever developed the kit has done it!

I think you are missing the point that if I took a rear axle from a Sport or a 1996 to 2001 Explorer, pulled all the braking hardware off of it and put it in a box, would that be any different then a kit? The "kit" as you call it, says that someone did research and knew if they put this and that in a box, it would work. The kit I used is nothing more then new parts that is the identical parts that comes on the 2003 Sport Trac. Is it a jkit because someone did the research, or is it nothing more then parts pulled from the braking system off a Sport? That is all the Motorsport kit is. Part for part, fastener for fastener, etc., is nothing different than going to the junk yard and pulling the hardware off a Sport, or 2003 Sport Trac, off the rear axle and you got a rear disk conversion kit.

The roughly 12K members here are some of the most knowledgable Sport Trac owner in the country.

While I do agree with you, don't think for a second that there are many people that have forgotten more then most of us will ever know about a Sport Trac. Don't think that just because it wasn't done here means that it can't be done.

I don't care if you or anyone thinks a 4.6 or 5.0 V8 will fit the Sport Trac or not.

So far, nobody has said that a 4.6L will fit. A 4.6L V8 is almost too large for a 1969 Mustang. Those cars came with big block V8's and if a 4.6L V8 is to big, we know it wont fit in a 2001 to 2005 Sport Trac. The point is that looking under the hood of my brothers 1999 Explorer, my sister's 1998 Explorer and my 2002 Spor Trac, they are identical. If my brother's 1999 Explorer was available with a V8, there is no reason why my 2002 Trac won't accept a V8.

What are you so angry about??

Not angry. If I seem angry, sorry about that.

You want to argue so much...

Just in case you forgot, it takes two to argue. You are just as guilty as I am.





Tom

 

[Richard L]

Caymen,

Do you actually think that the manufacturer of your brake cconversion kit just took a bunch of Explorer brake parts and threw them in a box, without ever doing the conversion themselves??? I think not. The existance of a kit would clearly indicate that it can be done. So while I applaud you for finding the kit an doing the conversion, you may have never done it if the kit was not available. The brake conversion has no bearng on fitting a V8 into the early model Sport Trac, only that the Ford Engineers said a V8 would not fit. You tried to point out that the Engineers said the rear disc brakes off a regular Explorer would not work, when infact they only said "The did not recommend doing it". I think there may have been some doubt or questions in their mind about the front/rear brake biasing, which could be corrected with proportioning valves if necessary.



I said that Ford does not make an V8 engine that will fit into the Sport Trac as a bolt in. Older engines might fit, however in most states it is illegal to change to an older engine due to emissions laws.



...Rich

 

[michael b]

Just to respond to a few comments: I've had my ST for over 6 years & it's been paid off for a while now. The whole point is that I have no intention of selling the vehicle because I like it & have far too much money in it anyway.When the swap is finished it will still be usable as a daily driver if I want it to be. The swap is being done by a professional & will be as drivable as before the swap, It will just be more fun. This is not for minimal power increase either. I never had any real complaints with the V6 motor except the truck could never have the "sound" to match the looks of the truck--actually everyone I know expected it to be a V8 vehicle in the first place. It was almost embarrasing to have to tell people it had a 6 cylinder, Not because its a bad motor but because of the aggressive persona I've given the ST.

205-210 hp wasnt bad for the ST but the motor I'm putting in will be over 300hp & a lot of torque. It is a 4 bolt main chevy that will have performance hi-rise, headers, edelbrock carb (750?) and a cam. Actually I may start out with only the new cam & headers & add the easy stuff this spring. Thats the beauty of the sb chevy, it is easy to build up & cheap to get the parts too. No this is not going to be easy or cheap but I understood that when I started this project. It will take a lot of fabrication, welding, and extra parts (new shifter, custom driveshaft, custom crossmember, headers will need to be cut & re-welded, new brackets made etc. etc.) But it should be really unique when done & my mechanic promises it will be " F-N" fast when finished. Will I ever really use the power? Probably not anything close to the top end--Not with the truck having 8" of lift & the 37" tall tires--I wouldnt really trust it for long at high speeds. I will have fun on short distances though & maybe at the track. I dont expect to race Z-28s & vettes but it should be fun enough anyway. Also remember that I'm only doing this because my tranny went out & I cant see paying 2 grand to put another weak transmission back in. This will give me the sound I want, the power I want, a tough TH400 trans. And also this is not my only daily driver ( I've got my 07 Caliber & just bought a 95 Dodge Ram last week) so I have the luxury of being able to wait to get the truck done right & if anything messes up after I get it back I can have it tweaked until it is correct. When I got my Trac in '00 the tire shops said 265s wouldnt fit & 285s were too extreme (lots of you guys know different huh?) Now I have 37s & for just a little bit more I'm guessing I could do 40s. Tracs dont have rear discs but Caymen proved that wrong. A lot of us have done things to our trucks that took a lot of imagination & this V8/trans swap is just another attempt to make the truck "perfect" (to me anyway) I really like my ST & cant wait to get it back.[Broken External Image]:

 

[Tom Schindler]

Do you actually think that the manufacturer of your brake cconversion kit just took a bunch of Explorer brake parts and threw them in a box, without ever doing the conversion themselves???

Yes I do. The Explorer has the same differential the Sport Trac has. Same exact differential. Same, same, same. If the 8.8" differential is identical on one vehicle with disk brakes and another with drum brakes, the disk brakes will work on the one without disk brakes. The kit does not tell you what brake lines will work, it does not tell you what parking brake cables will work. Both of those were figured out by looking under my brothers 1999 Explorer (with the same differential) and comparing the two. I knew it would work. A stop by the local Ford dealer and I knew the parking brake is identical between the 2005 Trac and the 1999 Explorer.



The kit, sold by Ford Motorsport, says in the instruction manual that the kit is based off the 1996 Explorer and any replacement parts for that system can be obtained by asking for parts for a 1996 Explorer. Identical parts. The kit is simply just pars pulled off the shelf and put in a box.

Older engines might fit, however in most states it is illegal to change to an older engine due to emissions laws.

That is very true. Though, many states do not have emmision testing. Lets say you have a 2001 Trac. There was a 302 built in 2001 in the 2001 Explorer.



What I was saying about the brakes is that auto mnufacturers will not say things to prevent liability. They say a V8 won't fit and that is why they didn't offer one. In 2001, they had a V8 that would fit. They decided not to continue production. Currently, Ford does not build a V8 that would fit the Sport Trac, but at the same time, they also do not build a V8 to fit the 1996 to 2001 Explorers, but that does not mean a V8 won't fit.





Tom

 

[Fred]

Tonka, Don't forget, lots of pictures!!!

 

[Richard L]

Caymen,

I don't have emission testing in Texas, but it is still illegal to change to an older model engine. Most states have laws that you cannot replace th e engine except with the same engine year and model specs as the original and still operate that vehicle on the street.



While a 302 may have been built in 2001, and even if it were legal to install that in a Sport Trac, I don't think it would qualify as a "Bolt in" swap. I doubt that motormounts, steering, crossmembers etc would all fit exactly the same. That means there will be some cutting, some custom parts to fabricate, etc.



If any of these engines could be simply bolted in, it would have been done already and someone would know about it. Even if it were illegal, it would be done since most places don't know of all the optional engines available for a particular model unless they actually do emission testing.



As for your brake conversion. Again, the simple fact that a kit was available indicates that someone converted a Ford 8.8 rear to disc brakes and wrote up the instructions and gather the parts. Since the kit was a generic kit for a lot of vehicles with the 8.8 rear, they could not include every part that may very and every detail. There are dozens of kits to convert or change something that are generic and only give you the parts and instructions that are common to all models. Other parts and details may be necessary for your model.



Everything tells me that swaping the drum brakes for Explorer Disc brakes would work. I just think the Ford Engineers did not recommend it, because if someone did it and had a catastrophic failure, they could be sued for saying it would work. They did not say the parts would not fit, they only said they did not recommend doing that.



You keep wanting to convince me that a v8 will fit in the Sport Trac without extensive, and expensive modifications. The Ford engineers said the available v8's would not fit, and nobody has shown evidence that someone has done it, so what ever you say will not convince me unitl you show me a Sport Trac with a V8 in it without cutting, moving, and fabricating a lot of parts to make it fit.



...Rich

 

[WXMotorSports DecalsPartsAccs]

So, if I have a 65 Mustang I can't put in a brand new Ford Racing motor because it's a 2006 built motor?

 

[Travis Munday]

Yup, SST. Most states allow just about anything to be done, within broad guidelines, to be done on vehicles older then 25 years. So if you had a 1980 Mustang, you could put in a 1966 Mustang motor if you wanted too, at least here in Ga.



When updating motor on late models, it gets tricky as most of the time you're not supposed to remove or modify any emission control devices, which of course you usually have to when swapping motors. So even if it was an '01 Trac with an crate 5.0 motor, you'll run into legal problems if Johnny Law wants to get technical.



Something I suggest doing is bookmarking your states vehicle code. Read it, love it. Not only have I got Georgia's vehicle code bookmarked on my computer, I've got printed versions as well, although they are a bit out of date, still a good guideline.

 

[Richard L]

Tiger,

Well said. The state laws vary and enforcement may be irratic but most states have those kinds of laws.



Here in Texas there are only a few counties around the larger cities like Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, etc that actually stick a probe up the tail pipe and measure emission.



Other counties just have a vehicle safety inspection where the do check that all emission equipment is connected. Most of the time the quick check is so fast, I can't imagine that they would notice of something was disconnected. I was suprised a few years ago when my Son-In-Law's 1985 Dodge pickup (that I gave hime) flunked inspection because all the emissions where rendered inoperable. What the inspector noticed was the smog pump was removed and the holes in the exhaust where plugged, and the Evap hoses were missing. He never noticed a different carb, distributor and the removal of the computer system.



...Rich

 

[WXMotorSports DecalsPartsAccs]

That reminds me this year the ST needs a smog test to get tabs renewed.

 

[Tom Schindler]

I don't have emission testing in Texas, but it is still illegal to change to an older model engine. Most states have laws that you cannot replace th e engine except with the same engine year and model specs as the original and still operate that vehicle on the street.

You really think anyone cares what the law says if there is technically no way to find out? Lets get real here.

While a 302 may have been built in 2001, and even if it were legal to install that in a Sport Trac, I don't think it would qualify as a "Bolt in" swap. I doubt that motormounts, steering, crossmembers etc would all fit exactly the same. That means there will be some cutting, some custom parts to fabricate, etc.

A donor vehicle sitting next to the Trac would not need any cutting on motor mounts or anything. Everything you would need would already be there.

As for your brake conversion. Again, the simple fact that a kit was available indicates that someone converted a Ford 8.8 rear to disc brakes and wrote up the instructions and gather the parts.

I guess you are right. Afterall, the Explorer Sport Trac has the same axle as the Explorer does and all mounting points are identical between the axle, but the only difference would be the one axle was on an Explorer Sport Trac and the other was an Explorer. That kit would be different then having the exact same parts installed on an Explorer and just pulling them off one vehicle to be put on the other. Just for the record, the kit is not designed for a Mustang 8.8 because a Mustang is not an Explorer. The Sport Trac is based off the Explorer. It just happens to be the same parts from a 1996 Explorer. I am willing to bet someone spent hours trying to figure out what backing plate/caliper bracket to use for an Explorer rear axle. (For the record, when the kit was installed, there were no left over pieces and the mounting bolts were identical to my brothers 1999 Explorer...go figure)

You keep wanting to convince me that a v8 will fit in the Sport Trac without extensive, and expensive modifications.

No engine swap is easy. If the same vehicle had a V8 available, the job would be easier. A Mustang with a V6 would be an easier swap to a V8 then converting an Escort to a V8 becuse the Mustang has a V8 available and the Escort never did. The same with the Trac. Pop the hood between a V6 Explorer and a Trac without knowing which engine bay you are looking at and you can not tell the difference. Both my brother and sister have Explorers and everything is in the same place. I have also looked at a V8 Explorer under the hood. Besides the engine, there are no differences.



I refuse to comment on this any further.





Tom

 

[Richard L]

Caymen,

You are right, And that has always been my point....No engine swap is that easy, and a Ford V8 will not simply bolt into the Explorer Sport or Sport Trac chassis without modifications. The engine bay of a Sport/Sport Trac is smaller than on a standard 4 door Explorer.



Everybody keeps thinking that because the 4 door Explorers could be equiped with a V8, that it should just bolt into the Sport Trac but nobody has done it yet because it phsically will not fit without modifications.



Yes there are some vehicles that came with 6's and 8's and you could buy any necessary parts off the shelf and do a bolt in enigine swap. This is not the case with the Sport Trac.



I have done three engine swaps in my lifetime. Two were simple bolt in jobs using all OEM parts while the other was major surgery. I had to fabricate mounts, build a custom exhaust, and had to use an electric fan for clearance at the radiator. Heck even the radiator was not stock!



...Rich