Jeffksf B
Well-Known Member
Oh boy another thread hijacking
Lazy seatbelt recoil
- Thread starter Jeffksf B
- Start date
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Caymen,
Sorry, I said "Customer Service"; I should have said "QC".
Either way, as both as professionals, we are well aware of the trade-offs of putting out a quality product/service. I don't really need to be lectured and belittled in that way (e.g. "Now you know two things!").
I don't post such snide things when speaking to you. Yes, I am critical of Ford to the point of being harsh, but I am always fair to them, and especially to you.
Furthermore, note the apology above. I seemed to have offended or why else would you bring it up my miscategorization of your job. I try to apologize whenever I am wrong, have said something incorrect, misleading or potentially demeaning.
Apologizing when you say something incorrect, and trying to keep things polite and not snide, nor sarcastic is just good behavior. Check your posts in this thread. Do you see any places where you were snide, sarcastic, or could have apologized?
Later...have a good day (I mean that).
Jeff, as the for the hijacked thread. It's not hijacked. Just another example of where a person reports a defect/issue with their ST and some come to defend/apologize/excuse the defect as WAD (working as designed). If we continue to allow for that apologetic attitude when it comes to Ford quality, then "Ford quality" will always be an oxymoron.
TJR
Sorry, I said "Customer Service"; I should have said "QC".
Either way, as both as professionals, we are well aware of the trade-offs of putting out a quality product/service. I don't really need to be lectured and belittled in that way (e.g. "Now you know two things!").
I don't post such snide things when speaking to you. Yes, I am critical of Ford to the point of being harsh, but I am always fair to them, and especially to you.
Furthermore, note the apology above. I seemed to have offended or why else would you bring it up my miscategorization of your job. I try to apologize whenever I am wrong, have said something incorrect, misleading or potentially demeaning.
Apologizing when you say something incorrect, and trying to keep things polite and not snide, nor sarcastic is just good behavior. Check your posts in this thread. Do you see any places where you were snide, sarcastic, or could have apologized?
Later...have a good day (I mean that).
Jeff, as the for the hijacked thread. It's not hijacked. Just another example of where a person reports a defect/issue with their ST and some come to defend/apologize/excuse the defect as WAD (working as designed). If we continue to allow for that apologetic attitude when it comes to Ford quality, then "Ford quality" will always be an oxymoron.
TJR
TJR,
Seriously. Before I got into QC, I never understood how stuff worked. As I got to see the development of products, I came to learn that sometimes things just have to be the way they are. There is really nothing you can do about it. It is not a quality issue. It is not a design issue. The highest quality materials and the best design does not say everything will work EXACTLY as designed.
That is a reality in life in my world. I see it every day. In my field of work now, we have as many engineers as there are hourly workers. There are bad designes that are out of anyones control. Redesigning is not an option. Sure, it is easy to play armchair quarterback and say there is always an option, but that is not entirely true.
There are so many issues that are sometimes out of Ford's, or the company I work for's, control. Compliance with government regulations is a big one. That is something I know alot about.
Fixing issues like that is not just, "pull one out and stick a different one it", you also have crash testing, endurance testing, etc. that goes with it. Provided you can get government OK with it.
Do some people see it as a lame excuse? Maybe. Until you are in those same shoes and truly understand what it is like and what manufacturers sometimes have to deal with, you just won't get it.
If the government told you that you are not allowed to pick garbage off the floor, it would be unfair for someone to call you lazy because the floor is dirty. Sure that is a made up statement, but I think you get the point.
Tom
Seriously. Before I got into QC, I never understood how stuff worked. As I got to see the development of products, I came to learn that sometimes things just have to be the way they are. There is really nothing you can do about it. It is not a quality issue. It is not a design issue. The highest quality materials and the best design does not say everything will work EXACTLY as designed.
That is a reality in life in my world. I see it every day. In my field of work now, we have as many engineers as there are hourly workers. There are bad designes that are out of anyones control. Redesigning is not an option. Sure, it is easy to play armchair quarterback and say there is always an option, but that is not entirely true.
There are so many issues that are sometimes out of Ford's, or the company I work for's, control. Compliance with government regulations is a big one. That is something I know alot about.
Fixing issues like that is not just, "pull one out and stick a different one it", you also have crash testing, endurance testing, etc. that goes with it. Provided you can get government OK with it.
Do some people see it as a lame excuse? Maybe. Until you are in those same shoes and truly understand what it is like and what manufacturers sometimes have to deal with, you just won't get it.
If the government told you that you are not allowed to pick garbage off the floor, it would be unfair for someone to call you lazy because the floor is dirty. Sure that is a made up statement, but I think you get the point.
Tom
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
WTF does that mean?
You know...it was a joke Gavin. Not an insult.
Tom
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Caymen said:
I get it, trust me, I get it.
You continue to assume you know me. You do not. I have worked on a factory line. I have worked QC. I have worked as a union laborer, and I have put myself through college to work as an engineer. I design computer systems by day, develop usable websites and web applications by night. I have led teams of dozens of people, and I have oversite and direction for products that are used by tens of thousands, including a primary Japanese customer. Quality and customer satisfaction have a whole new meaning when serving the Japanese, trust me.
So, I've walked such shoes and more.
There! I didn't want to resort to whipping it out and being part of peeing contest as I have nothing to prove, but my subtle comments before stating that I understand and appreciate the trade-offs seemed to have fallen on deaf ears.
So, you can see, I appreciate the trade-offs, but what I cannot appreciate is the all too often excuses, whether they be "WAD", or "you can't please everybody all the time."
As far as the seatbelt assembly not being "a little thing", and there being aspects of the problem (suppliers, govt regulations, safety testing, etc) that are outside of Ford's control, I am not sure why you have to mention that. I understand all that. But manufacturers that seem to get this right (or should I more fairly say "do it better") have to deal with the same issues; right? So really, unless the issues are unique to Ford, they really don't matter as a reason for why Ford has failed to deliver a seatbelt in an ST that meets expectations.
I frankly DO NOT agree that it is too costly to develop/procure a seatbelt assembly that isn't too tight (by most people's account), and retracts better than the one in the ST.
So to summarize:
Ford had complaints that the seatbelts were too tight, so to fix the problem they made them looser to the point that they often don't retract properly. Furthermore, and seemingly in defense of Ford, they don't actually manufacture the seatbelt assembly.
I get all that.
What I don't get is why that seems acceptable...or "good enough", when there are so many other makes and models that don't have this issue. The other manufacturers are up against the same issues.
TJR
I get it, trust me, I get it.
You continue to assume you know me. You do not. I have worked on a factory line. I have worked QC. I have worked as a union laborer, and I have put myself through college to work as an engineer. I design computer systems by day, develop usable websites and web applications by night. I have led teams of dozens of people, and I have oversite and direction for products that are used by tens of thousands, including a primary Japanese customer. Quality and customer satisfaction have a whole new meaning when serving the Japanese, trust me.
So, I've walked such shoes and more.
There! I didn't want to resort to whipping it out and being part of peeing contest as I have nothing to prove, but my subtle comments before stating that I understand and appreciate the trade-offs seemed to have fallen on deaf ears.
So, you can see, I appreciate the trade-offs, but what I cannot appreciate is the all too often excuses, whether they be "WAD", or "you can't please everybody all the time."
As far as the seatbelt assembly not being "a little thing", and there being aspects of the problem (suppliers, govt regulations, safety testing, etc) that are outside of Ford's control, I am not sure why you have to mention that. I understand all that. But manufacturers that seem to get this right (or should I more fairly say "do it better") have to deal with the same issues; right? So really, unless the issues are unique to Ford, they really don't matter as a reason for why Ford has failed to deliver a seatbelt in an ST that meets expectations.
I frankly DO NOT agree that it is too costly to develop/procure a seatbelt assembly that isn't too tight (by most people's account), and retracts better than the one in the ST.
So to summarize:
Ford had complaints that the seatbelts were too tight, so to fix the problem they made them looser to the point that they often don't retract properly. Furthermore, and seemingly in defense of Ford, they don't actually manufacture the seatbelt assembly.
I get all that.
What I don't get is why that seems acceptable...or "good enough", when there are so many other makes and models that don't have this issue. The other manufacturers are up against the same issues.
TJR
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Ford buyers have different expectations than buyers of the other brands.
