Immigration Issue

[Nelson Atwell]

I'm really surprised this hasn't been discussed here. This is a really important issue for the US, and how we handle it will be watched by the World. This has been building for at least 30 years.



What makes it difficult is that there are now 11-12 million ilegal immigrants in the country and many have been here long enough to establish themselves into our society and have millions of American-born children in our schools. Since these folks are illegal, they have to work off the books and can't pay taxes without being found out. Many work jobs for less than minimum wage and take jobs that most of us would never take at any price.



The challenge is to allow a peaceful transition for these folks either into our country as citizens or permanent residents, or to make them leave. I don't see any workable solution to get them to leave peaceably. The Senate seems to have the beginnings of a workable solution. The House has a proposal that had half a million people marching in Los Angeles. Clearly, the House has proposed a plan that could drag our country into a quagmire only seen during the 1960s Civil Rights Protests or the Civil War.



See the article for additional information on this hot issue.

 

[Jackie Beene]

Most of these people are good citizens. They just happen to be here ILLEGALLY and are therefore criminals. There was an amnesty program for this years ago. I think that only made matters worse. There needs to be someway to convert them into tax paying citizens and change them to some sort of legal status. God knows we can't deport all of them and can't keep them from getting back here even if we could find them and deport them back to their respective countrys. I do hope that someone smarter than I can figure this out and make our borders more secure and yet allow legal immigration.

Jackie

 

[Rodger Tellefson]

The problem is that there are probably none of us here that would do manual labor in the fields to harvest crops that have to be hand picked. As I see it we are in a 'catch 22', darned if we do - darned if we don't. Why high school students are protesting is probably because many of their friends are hispanic.

 

[Jeff C]

All the video I saw showed people holding Mexico's flags. They're protesting against the government of the country they are in illegally, if you don't like it, go home. I personally think they should have been waving US flags...

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Considering the march happened in Southern California, it stands to reason the majority of marchers would be from Mexico or at least have Mexican heritage. Still, there were a lot of US flags. They apparently love America, otherwise they wouldn't want to stay.



One thing I admire is that with so many people gathered in one place, and with passions so high, there was no rioting. The US may have some problems, but we don't have rioting in the streets, or bombings, or kidnappings or many of the other problems so common in other parts of the World. That is the example we need to give to the World, so that they will be motivated to follow our lead as a civilized nation.



[Broken External Image]:

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

I'm sorry, but what part of illegal do we not understand. The cost verses benefit for this "cheep" labor has not been decided. I want my relatives from Italy to be here too. So I guess they shouldn't wait for legal access and should come over in a container ship. Get a job without papers and "WALLAH" another new citizen. Give me a break.



No one should be deemed an American citizen born of Illegal Immigrants just because they happen to be in the U.S. I would extend that privilage to aliens that are legally in the country or guests of this country that are legally here.



No where in our history have we pandered to a specific group of people to the extent we do today including teaching their kids in there native language rather than English. If you want a united country you need a unifying language that we can all feel common. If I can't understand you I really can't feel that close to you and treat you as one of us.



These , in general, are not immigrants. They are more like colonists who want to keep their language and customs and not necessarily blend in with the natives.

 

[shawn stonbraker 2]

mikec, you have some good points and I agree with most of them except that unless you are native american then someone from your distant relation came from somewhere else. And if it's far enough back, they didn't have papers. With that said, I agree with the part of teaching them in thier native tongue. The majority here speak english. If you want to be a part of this country, you should learn english, and use it. I should not have to learn spanish, french, etc. to have to work with you. I was born here but my roots (long down the line) are from Germany.

I don't think they should be able to come here illegally and have a child and we as a country say "ok, the child is an american citizen". Why? It makes no sence. what happens when the parents get cought? Who takes care of the kid? Remember not long ago, wasn't there something like that happen down in Florida? The parents got sent back but the parents family tried to keep the kid. I can't remember the exact account, but I kept saying, "send them back with the parents".

As for what we would do if we sent them back? Who would do the meaningless jobs that they do now? Well, there are ALOT of people who are "Americans" on welfare and such that don't want to work even though they are able to. Make them do them for free and they can keep getting the "free handout".

That's my opinion on the matter.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Mike, being from the Northeast, it seems apparent you haven't dealt with too many of the immigrants from Mexico. Here in the Southwest, the Hispanic population is huge and well-established. While it is true that their English skills aren't as good as most American-born persons, most can communicate well enough.



In Oklahoma City, nearly every service-industry establishment has Hispanics working in them. I am sure most of these are legal residents or US citizens. In my daughter's school, Hispanics are the number 2 minority behind Native Americans. Number 3 is Asians, which are mostly Vietnamese. I make mention of the Native Americans, since they are the only true Americans -- all the rest of us are of immigrant descent.



Like it or not, Hispanics are the largest minority in the US, and they are multiplying at a higher rate than any other group. Additionally, the US automatically gives citizenship to anyone born within its borders, regardless of whether the parents are citizens. Nearly every country in the World has the same policy.



I defend the immigrants, because my fiancee is Hispanic. She is not however an immigrant or descended from immigrants. She does get treated as an immigrant at times though, because many US citizens are ignorant of the fact that Puerto Rico is a US territory. You would not belive the prejudice these folks put up with on a daily basis.



Even still, the Hispanics I know and work with are proud to be in the US, and love this country. They serve with distinction in the Armed Forces of this country. Many of their families did not enter the US legally, but they are still making their contribution to keep this country free.



I focused on the Hispanics, but I know in your part of the country, Portuguese immigrants are more common. Since I lived in Portugal for 27 months, I know a bit about them too. They share the same work-ethic and family values of the Hispanics. I would be happy to welcome these newcomers as citizens.



The illegal status of most of these folks is unfortunate. Most of these immigrants are dirt-poor and have no resources to make a living in Mexico. Mexico doesn't have the strong middle-class like we do. You are either rich or poor, with little opportunity to move into the higher wage brackets. They risk everything to cross the border to make a better life for themselves in the US. There was once a time when we welcomed immigrants from Europe and Asia. Chicago, St Louis, Cincinnati and many other Eastern cities still have large populations of Irish, German and Italian descent. San Francisco has a large Chinese population as well.



Sometime after WWII we decided that immigrants aren't welcome anymore, unless they are trained in a skill. We are happy to allow engineers and scientists into our country from India and Asia, but when it comes to poor, unskilled and uneducated immigrants we hold the doors closed. Thankfully, we have too many doors and the immigrants sneak in. Without them, the Central Valley of California would be a barren land, because there would be no one to plant and harvest the crops. Hotels and restaurants would have to charge outrageous rates to pay their employees, without the cheap labor source. In general, more jobs would be out-sourced to China and India, because we couldn't afford to keep those jobs here.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

stonemiser,



The kid you are talking about is Elian Gonzales. His parents are Cuban.

 

[shawn stonbraker 2]

Yeah, that was it Nelson. As soon as I read the name it clicked.

 

[Larry Gamble]

I say we just annex Mexico as states 51-63 or however many provences there are. Then, there won't be any illegals. It can't be much more expensive than we're already forking over in welfare to the undeserved. Plus, look at how it will automatically shaft all those corporations that shifted plants from the US to Mexico where they pay $3 a day instead of $15 an hour. Look at all the increased tax revenue when they have at least pay min. wage!



It's win-win!

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

NelsonOKC, we have many hispanic non documented aliens in the North east. MANY do not speak, nor try to speak English. I do not imply that their work ethics are poor. I do not think it is fair to give them PREFERENTIAL treatment by granting amnisty or any other such garbage idea. We've done it twice already and that's not counting the Cuban invasion of the South East. We should not reward people for breaking the law. Why not just let the people of Southern Africa, Cambodia etc. in the country because their plight is as great or not greater than the Mexicans. There are over 12 MILLION illegals in this country. Most of them hispanic (because of their greater access to the border). That's saying that at least 5% of our population, or 1 out of every 20 people are here illegal.



While I'm at it, legal aliens should not be part of the Social Security System. That benefit ( some say it is not a benefit) belongs to Americans. Right now even illegals can even get some of this money. America is a land of opportunity, NOT A FREE LUNCH.



If Mexico which has resources such as oil, and aboundant labor should straighten out their own act and improve the lot of the citizentry. WHY DOES MEXICO HAVE BASICALLY A CLOSED SOUTHERN BORDER? They don't want people sneaking into their country. What hypocracy.



When earlier immegrents entered this country they waited on a list and had to be sponsored by someone who vouched for them and was responsible for them. They had to have a job, before they got in. This is a far cry from what is happening now.



Let my make a statement. I have no negative feelings toward any group of people that are here, reguadless of race or color IF they want to become PART OF OUR society. I dislike those that come here and want to maintain their OWN society and not meld in.



Right now the PC world is worried about offending Muslims to the extent that they do STUPID things just so they can not be called racists. Allowing a Islamic women to take a photo ID on a drivers license while wearing a full Boca which covers her face is just plain stupid. Why can't I wear a ski mask when I take photo IDs ?

 

[Nelson Atwell]

My ancestors came over when the Native Americans were in charge, and the US was a wilderness. My ancestors didn't get Visas to come in, so I guess I should leave too. They brought cannons and muskets and just took the land. My daughter and I will leave and go back to Europe when all the other people whose ancestors didn't have Visas leave.



You and all the folks whose entire ancestry's entry into the country was documented can have what's left over after we leave. I think it will be a lonely place.



By the way, Muslims are not a race. They are a religion. You can't be racist against a religion. You can be prejudiced and intolerant though. Hispanics are not a race either, so go ahead and be intolerant.

 

[Tom Schindler]

The point is, why should we reward those that come into this country illegally? A child born in the US is a citizan. If you swam across the Rio Grande, then swim back across. My mother is from Germany. She went through the proper channels to become an American Citizen. heck, I was a US citizen long before she was.



Those from other countries, such as Mexico, are a burdon to society. They do not pay tax's, they do not pay into social security, and require us to change our language to help them out. "Se Habla Espanol" is not in my vocabulary. "Welcome to America, please speak English".



Sneak in and I don't feel you are welcomed to be here. Stay in your country. Start a revolution. Only then will you get the treatment you deserve.





Tom

 

[Nelson Atwell]

"Se Habla Espanol" is not in my vocabulary.

How could you type it, if you don't know it? j/k :lol:



I have learned a little bit of several languages from my travels, and the fact I'm dating a Hispanic. She speaks fluent English, but I like to learn as much about people as I can. No one has required me to learn English. My brother owns a business in New Mexico which has an even greater population of Hispanics. Most of his employess are first or second generation, and he knows almost no Spanish.



Canadians already know that to be sucessful in business, they need to know both English and French, since Quebec has many French speakers. The same is true of speaking Spanish in the US. You can refuse to learn, but a bilingual person will beat you out of the job almost every time.



As far as there being a revolution in Mexico, I would not wish that on any country, especially one that neighbors us. A revolution would create instability and violence in most cases. That sort of problem would potentially create a flow of refugees into this country which would dwarf our current flow of immgrants.

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

NelsonOKC, I think you are confusing immigration with colonization.



OKC I'm not intolerant as you imply.



First Hispanic is a PC coined word. Please define it. Most would assume that it describes people from Spanish speaking countries. If Hispanic does not define a race or type of peoples, then what is it.



When your ancesters came here there was no single soverign nation. If fact your ancestors had no one to get a Visa from. And in fact, they DID NOT BREAK ANY LAW! I believe that you are comparing apples and peaches. They came over as colonists, not immigrants, in the time period you are referring to.



BTW I know Muslims are not a race, but the way people use the word Hispanic, it is similar to referring to all orientals (Japan, China, etc.) which have a common racial source.



You say that a revolution in Mexico is not in our best interest. Well the present Mexican government isn't doing that great of a job in helping us secure our borders against drugs, guns, and illegals.



OKC answer me this if you would. Why is the southern Mexican border basically closed shut for and "foreigners" that want to come in illegally?

 

[vern k 2]

"While I'm at it, legal aliens should not be part of the Social Security System. That benefit ( some say it is not a benefit) belongs to Americans"



You are correct, that benifit belongs to Americans. Legal aliens can collect SS, but they also pay for it as well.



I am a legal alien working in the US. I pay taxes which support social security and medicare.

I can collect SS, but I can only collect Medicare if i become an American citizen.



There is also a rumor that you will have to become a citizen to collect SS in the future.

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

alien, I agree. As a LEGAL alien you are a guest of my country and I will address you accordingly. As an Illegal I will not give you the same courtesy.

 

[Jim Reeves]

I am not really sure if it is fair to call someone intolerant if they think that everyone should obey the laws that are already on the books. The government of Mexico has already made it plain that they will not do anything to help support the immigration laws of the United States. IF they want a better life for the people of Mexico, why do they not do something about the socio-economic situation in their own country, instead of helping their countrymen to get into the United States illegally. Why should people who are not citizens of this country be given access to government programs that even some citizens have trouble getting. If immigrants want to come to this country by following the immigration laws of this country, by learning the language, by pledging their allegance to this country, then I'm for it. If they want to come into this country illegally, break the laws of this country, not pay taxes, and then demand that they be given access to government programs that are funded by the hard-working LEGAL citizens of this country, then they should be deported back to wherever they came from. That is not racist, that is not elitists, that is right, no matter what kind of spin the liberals in this country try to put on it. In North Carolina there is a growing population of illegal immigrants, and it gets worse every day. I am sure that some of them are hard-working, upstanding folks. There are also those who have no intention of showing any allegance to this country. They don't want to learn the language, learn how to drive on our streets, pay taxes or anything else that a law-abiding citizen should do. All they want is access to the social programs that are paid for on the backs of hard working Americans. They don't want to be a part of us, they just want some of what we have worked so hard for, and fought for, and died for. I don't care what Ted Kennedy says, that is not right. Period.

 

[Stephane Bolduc]

MikeC, I could not agree more with you concerning the Social Security.



As a legal immigrant (from Canada since '98), I too, think that I should not pay it since I am not entitled to it. I am legal here based on a work visa. If I quit my employment, I lose my visa and I have to get out of the country right away and come back as a "tourist" for no longer than half a year minus one day; which makes me non eligible for "unemployment" that I have been paying for 8 years.



On the other side, I am entitled to social security at retirement IF I have cumulated at least 40 credits (at maximum 4 credits/year, it takes 10 years). Would you think that me, paying yearly taxes at about the rate of one year of minimum wages salary entitles me to a small portion of the social security fund that I contributed to for 10 years ? If you still think no; I most certainly agree with you; don't make me pay it, that would be more money in my pocket that I would manage myself and get a much better return than the social security (if it still exist 36 years from now....).



Back on the subject; it's hard to tell that illegal immigrants helps the country by doing jobs americans dont' want. I think it just helps the lazy one's. There are poor and non-educated americas totally abusing the social security systems. They need to get a good 'ol kick in the a$$ and showed the way to the crop fields and start earning instead of complaining.



I am against illegal immigrants. Money wise, if their entire family is provided with school and medical, well, the cost just went up. It also add to the county cost; road maintenance, water maintenance,... all paid with taxes. So we should not just look at the salary cost, you have to add it all up. My guess is that it comes pretty close to minimum wages of legal workers, but the bonus is that legal workers contribute to the social system.



How do you fix it ? I say you hold the employers liable (the same way I obtain my work visa, when my employer sponsor my visa, they are liable for all me legal actions; if I load my credit cards and bail out of the USA, my employer will have to pay them...).



And don't just give them a slap on the wrist; if you make the penalty severe enough; a fine equivalent to twice as much as it would have cost them to have a legal worker in the first place, it will make them think twice. If illegal immigrants are not hired, then they won't risk their life to come here.