I'm fighting a ticket

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OK, I'll bite. What's a stop line? Is it the wide solid white line running across the lanes of traffic? It's only been 30+ years since I took drivers ed. so I'm not familiar with it. I've often wondered what the wide white line implied since I'm apt to be past it in most cases.
 
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I was a passenger in a friends car when something like this happened.



Went to court and lost. Judge said you MUST at the stop line as well as the stop sign if they are not at the exact same spot.



So he got the ticket for running the stop sign as he did stop at the line. The sign was eight feet in front of the line.

How nice...
 
RichardL - but the cop said the judge was impartial - YEAH RIGHT!



Teasip - yes...the stop line is the big fat white line that typically is right next to the stop sign or in this case...about four feet from the cross walk.



Thanks everyone for the advice. I will still plead not guilty and go to court. I will be respectful and plead my case and attempt to not squash this officer too much. From what I've read...there can't be any additional costs to me. Just my time. Taking two to four hours is no big deal.



Here's a picture of the intersection and the cops view.

[Broken External Image]:



As you can see...if a small sedan stopped at the crosswalk lines...it's very plausible that I stopped just a short distance from the stop line.
 
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Jeff:



I have some advice based on PA law, being a PA resident, and having been stopped, and worked in a D.A.'s office. I have seen, and experienced, this in a magistrate and a county court. And, one of our closest family friends is a magistrate in a local district (who gave me much of this advice in the past).



In short - you can go in and argue until your face is blue, but you are guilty. I am not saying you are really guilty, but if a police officer enters an appearance at the hearing, you're guilty. Photos where the event occurred are noteworthy, but not conclusive.



In PA, most magistrates are former police officers (though some are attorneys). There are friendships between individuals, and friendships based on "repeat customers" - an officer will spend much time in a magistrate's office. Moreover, most magistrates realize that police officers do serve a valid purpose, and allow them within reason leeway on the truth. Somewhere above, I believe someone mentioned about stretching the truth to get the big guilty. It happens. It always will.



Do not assume the officer will not show. In PA, most police departments allow officers paid time off (or time on) to attend hearings. PA officers no longer have a reason not to show (that is, the loss of pay). It is rare that I have seen an officer not show. Even local officers show. It's somewhat unbelievable, at least to me. However, because towns rely on the revenue from stops, there is an incentive for officers to show up. Moreover, supervisors may reprimand them for not doing so.



What you are doing is the right thing:



(a) Show up 10 to 15 minutes early. The officer will likely be there from a previous hearing.

(b) Address the officer respectfully prior to the hearing. Explain your position, and request his input on whether a compromise can be reached prior to the hearing.

(c) Hope for the best.



He says he already cut me a break by giving me a "no points" citation for "Obedience to traffic control devices". The $25 fine plus $81.50 in EMS, MCARE and other costs brings me to a total of $106.50. I talked to my brother who is local cop in Virginia and he tells me this is a chicken sh!& citation.



You are speaking about a PA 3111. This statute, which is OFTEN the statute that officers use when REDUCING infractions, specifies that the driver did not follow some traffic device. And, as you stated, it carries no points.



From what I see, you may enter a pleading of not guilty on the ticket and submit it, and try to plead guilty on the day and hope for less, but you are climbing a steep hill. If the officer states that he issued the lower citation, you essentially received the break most receive. When I was stopped for 78 in a 55, the state police officer reduced it to a 3111 at the hearing. My fine was nearly the same as yours (I only recall it being under $110) without points (not bad from $180 and four points).



As far as I see it, and I am not being accusative, but comparing your account to the relevant law:



Pennsylvania Consolidated Statute 3323:



(b) Duties at stop signs.--Except when directed to proceed by a police officer or appropriately attired persons authorized to direct, control or regulate traffic, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line . . . .



Technically, even though you estimate you stopped between 4 and 5 feet behind the line, the law requires a stop at the line itself. Now, this reading is anal, but by the text of the law, there was a violation.



How about the fact that I have to send a check that will get cashed even though I am pleading not guilty and should be "innocent until proven guilty".



First, this acts as something like bail. It assures you will show on the given day. And, an innocent person would - like
 
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Thanks for the advise, AdamCKash. I was online last night reading up on the 3111 and become familiar with what you posted. I also understand I have an uphill battle. That is why most people just pay the fine. But I truly believe that I stopped at the stop sign/line and should not be subject to this petty citation. I very much understand that this cop was nothing more than a tax collector in a uniform merely writing citations to make his superiors happy. Most people understand that quotas are not legal but that doesn't mean that generating revenue from no-point high priced citations don't occur on a regular basis. Anything short of me leaving without paying a dime will be a dissapointment...but I realize that is still very likely.
 
Originally, this was referred to as a "chickensh!& citation". My understanding of this term is that it really is an offense, but conventional wisdom thinks that it is not important enough to take notice of. Not that it is not an offense. I don't see how you can really expect to get off. Granted maybe it is petty, but based on your version of the events, you did not stop for the stop sign. You stopped because the car in front of you stopped for the stop sign, whether too far up or not. It sucks, but...
 
The "Failure To Obey Traffic Device" in PA is mostly used as a revenue generator. You don't get any points, so most people are happy to pay the fine and not fight the ticket. I got a speed trap ticket a few years ago and that's what they wrote me (and everybody else) up for.

FWIW, where I live in PA there are very few places where a stop sign has a line painted on the street in front of it.
 
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Right, Wally, Hefay admitted to not stopping AT the stop bar (5 to 10 feet away is NOT AT). He got busted, already got it dropped to a no-point, low cost citation. Everything else is just wasting time and sour grapes if he pushes it; grinding an axe with really nothing to prove (sorry, that's the way I see it).



TJR
 
No one's mentioned the officer's camera.... IF he had one and it was ON, then everything you and he said was recorded and might get played in court.



 
TJR, if 5 feet away doesn't qualify, then what is "AT"? (I'm not being sarcastic here--I'm honestly curious about if there is a legal definition of this, and if so, what it is.)
 
I don't have a legal definition at my finger-tips, BillV, just that 5 to 10 feet (which was the first claim) doesn't seem "AT" to me. Stopping at a line would be "at the line", again, to me. Within no more than a few inches to a foot, would be at the line...anything more, especially 3 feet and beyond, and most definiately 5 feet and beyond is not "AT"...again, IMHO.



The line is there for a reason. You are to stop AT the line for maximum visibility. If we were talking about a few inches or a foot or two, than okay, sure, probably no problem; but 5 feet or more...that's no where near AT the line IMHO.



TJR
 
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I think CDL standards is that you must stop within 2 feet of a stop sign or line. I think this is a good rule for preventing tickets so I usually follow that. I'm extremely careful around law enforcement because, with my luck, the guy is in a bad mood and looking to get me on something. I even drive 5 MPH under the speed limit with the police heavily on my rear bumper. I haven't had a ticket since 1993.
 
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