I'm fighting a ticket

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J

Jeff Geist

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Jan 30, 2002
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Location
Royersford, PA
I got a citation yesterday after work for doing a "California roll" at a stop sign (I'm from PA). Just like Andy Dufresne from the Shawshank Redemption, "Everybody's innocent in here." and so am I.



Here's the quick story. I was traveling in a small city with stop signs at about every other street intersection. The car in front of me rolls past the stop line (about half way) and I stop behind the line. I would say I was about 5-10 feet behind the line making a complete stop. There are no other cars there...I see the cop sitting there and proceed through the intersection. I get pulled over, he gives me a ticket. I ask for a warning. He says he already cut me a break by giving me a "no points" citation for "Obedience to traffic control devices". The $25 fine plus $81.50 in EMS, MCARE and other costs brings me to a total of $106.50. I talked to my brother who is local cop in Virginia and he tells me this is a chicken sh!& citation. So...even though I should just pay the citation, I'm going to plead not guilty, take a half a day off and go to court. The only thing I have to lose is time. But...it will be a learning experience and who knows...maybe I'll change professions and become a lawyer and protect those that just pay the fine because it's easier. If I was guilty...I'd pay the fine and chalk it up to my own fault, but not on this one.



This whole system is a crock. I can't help but think that the $80+ in extra fees is crap. How about the fact that I have to send a check that will get cashed even though I am pleading not guilty and should be "innocent until proven guilty". It just bugs me and on principle alone...I'm going to stand in front of the judge and tear down the officers citation rationale. Anyone have any advice? I took some pictures already and started gathering my facts. I wrote down when I got home the conversation I had with the officer. It should be fun. I'll post some pictures later tonight if this topic gets any attention.
 
Welcome to the Justice system. It is geared guilty until proven innocent. No matter how someone tries to defend the system, there is no justice.





Tom
 
bpoche, that is normal. If you want to appear in court, be prepared to pay court costs, which could be way more than the original violation. Also, be sure to tell the truth or you could be charged with perjury.



I agree with Tom. Traffic court is the only place i our justice system where you are guilty until proven innocent. The supreme court rolled over on us decades ago and allowed it to happen in the name of public safety. Funny how now people complain, but they have learned to accept it and do nothing to change it.
 
Lucky you arent in Kentucky, i got one for doing 15 over the limit, the cost of the fine was like 35.00, but hte court cost is 134.00, even if you send it in, Duh, there is no court cost if u pay it dumbasses, but i choose to pay it, if i chooser to fight it, i wiould still have to pay the 134 for court cost. They are really screwed up here.



duece
 
Duece, I hear you. I used to live in KY. They have some really redneck cops there too. My last ticket was a couple days after I returned back from four years overseas. I was driving into Louisville from Lexington. There was a tree branch covering the sign reducing the speed limit from 65 to 55 and the Louisville cop stopped me.



When I asked where the speed limit changed, he got an attitude and told me the sign was a mile back, just past where he clocked me at 10 mph over the 55 mph limit. He told me to pay more attention and get an attitude adjustment. I made a point to go back and look for myself, and sure enough there was a sign with a great big tree branch obscuring it from view.



It probably didn't help that I had a UK Wildcats National Championship license frame on my car. There was no love lost towards Louisville that day. I've always thought that whole town sucked. The only redeeming feature it ever had was the Louisville Slugger plant, and now it is in Indiana.



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Louisville Slugger bats are made on Main street in downtown Louisville. They closed the Indiana plant 6-8 years ago and moved it back here. They have the museum and production facility all together......a great tour for anyone coming this way.

Not suggesting you take a Louisville Slugger when fighting your ticket.

SS



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hefhay, I suspect you did do a rolling stop IF your full-stop was almost 10 feet before the stop bar. Your full stop should be "just before" the stop bar to reduce your time through the intersection once you proceed AND to give you maximum visibility to possible oncoming traffic. What is the definition of "just before"...to me; much LESS than 10 feet.



I know you said 5 to 10, but don't we usually always "underestimate" our descretions?



So you can complain about the padded fine and the "guility until presumed innocent" nature of traffic violations, but it does seem that by your description, and even your admission of guilt at the scene by asking the patrolmen for "a warning" you are guilty.



Pay the ticket, learn your lesson, be glad no points are involved. Going to court will just lose you a day of work, and all the aggravation, and after the "learning experience" you will have learned nothing (I fear). No, I am not saying you can't learn, I am just expecting this WON'T be a learning experience and that you will simply get the same set of fines when declare guilty; given the offense, I see no reduced plea possible.



TJR
 
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"Less than 10" is most likely less than half a car length (isn't the ST 19 feet and some inches?). And IMHO, that definitely qualifies as being "just before" the stop bar. Especially if there was a crosswalk just past the stop bar--stopping short of it is just being extra cautious and courteous to any pedestrians that might enter the cross while you're stopped.
 
Bill, he said up to 10 feet from the stop bar, and those are supposed to be before cross-walks (if my memory from sign and highway line installation days is good, a stop bar is supposed to be 4' BEFORE a crosswalk line). It's not only discourteous to stop in a cross-walk, it's illegal. Hefay didn't mention a crosswalk, so I doubt it applied.



If it were almost 10 feet before the stop bar, that's almost a small car length.



Like I said, seems like a lot to me, and to the cop who stopped hefay.



TJR
 
TJR - you make some good points but asking for a warning is not an admission of guilt...it's just a way of trying to avoid getting a citation in the first place. As Bill V mentioned...stopping a few feet before the line is allowable as long as we're not talking about an excessive distance. I am not concerned with lying because I will not be doing that. I will simply be pointing out the facts. I will keep everyone posted on the outcome...should find out in the next two weeks. Maybe I'll catch the judge on a good day.



There was a crosswalk all aroung the intersection that was about 4 ft from the stop bar. From my estimations, if the vehicle (small sized passenger vehcile; something like a Nissan Sentra) ahead of me stopped at the cross walk line, then I could easily be a few feet from the stop line. My 5-10 feet may have been a little high now that I think about it.
 
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Good luck with it, hefay, but I fear that if you stopped any real distance from the stop bar, then proceeded without another full stop through the intersection, the cop has you dead to rights.



TJR
 
hefhay,

As others have mentioned, it may end up costing you a whole lot more than just paying the ticket.



If you feel the ticket in this little town was chickensh*t, do you think their traffic court will be any better?? Crooked cops make the traffic stop and the courts rake in the money.



Until the state cracks down on these little towns that make all their money from traffic violations, they will continue to do it. There were a number of infamous speed traps in Texas that were shut down about 10 years ago when the State required all traffic fines collected must go to the state except for a small fee that could be used to cover reasonable administrative costs only.



After that new law was inacted, a local town with a population of a few hundred people had to lay off 16 police officers and now only have 2 or 3. They had to sell most of their police cars and the town nearly went broke.



...Rich
 
I have written literally thousands of moving violation tickets. I have had maybe half a dozen found not guilty. The first problem you have is that the judge will "assume" that the Police Officer has no reason to lie. The second problem is the judge will "assume" you do have a reason to lie (money, demerits, pride etc).



As a matter of fact it would be unusaual NOT to have someone lie in court. Its a National pass time. You would never, repeat never get convicted for perjury for evidence given in your own defence. NEVER.

Go to court, police officers get busy and miss court far too often, if that happens ask for a dismissal of the charge. Mention how you took time off work to attend.



As for the strength of the summons, I would say you have a good shot at it. Here is my advice..........for what it is worth to you.



1. Talk politely to the officer and especially to the judge. ie: yes sir, no sir.

2. Go to Court clean and dressed neatly. Be professional in your look and demeanor.

3. Do not attempt to discredit the Police Officer, if you do you have just lost your case. Do however suggest that he did not see you come to a complete stop. The judge knows that cop and sees him in his court many times and you only once. He will believe the cop if it comes to a case of "he says..he says"

If you are found guilty, politely ask for a reprimand. You will usually get it.



Gerry



edidtied for typos

 
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Ditto what Gerry Mac said.



You can still be guilty, but you can present mitigating circumstances and maybe get the fine reduced or thrown out.



A few years ago, I was stopped for doing 76 mph in a 65 mph zone on I-10 in Florida. As it turned out, 1) I was driving a rental car that was indicating 7 mph over actual, and 2) I had two other guys in the car who were witnesses and immediately looked down at the speedometer when the trooper hit his lights. I already knew how fast we were going because I had the cruise control on. At the time, I was still in the Air Force, as were my traveling companions, so we all showed up in court wearing our dress blues. The trooper presented his radar certifications, and written details of the driving conditions (nighttime, dry, and clear). I told the judge my side, and he looks at my witnesses, and asks if they have the same story - "Yessir, they do". He didn't even talk to them. Just shook his head and said he would assess no points, and half the original fine. I was happy with that. To me, it wasn't even about the money. In the long run, it can be the points that cost you.



A book I read a few years ago (oddly enough called "The Ticket Book") recommends that you always go to court. In most places, if the officer doesn't show up, and they don't show up a lot, you're home free.
 
I agree with kefguy and Gerry Mac that you should *generally* plead the case and hope for a bargain especially where points are concerned, but in this case, what exactly is hefay likely to get bargained down to? It's already no points and only a $25 fine. The rest of the stuff is "misc fees and charges" which seem to me will be the same regardless. The best he can hope for is the cop to NOT show up or that it somehow gets thrown out, both of which are unlikely. If this cop is writing nuisance tickets simply to generate revenue he will be in court, trust me.



TJR
 
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I was a passenger in a friends car when something like this happened.



Went to court and lost. Judge said you MUST at the stop line as well as the stop sign if they are not at the exact same spot.



So he got the ticket for running the stop sign as he did stop at the line. The sign was eight feet in front of the line.

How nice...
 

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