A K
Well-Known Member
College prep runs on a 4.0. Add in Honors and Advanced Placement, which are weighted, and you can score much higher than a 4.0.
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illegle aliens
- Thread starter David Clary
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Gary Torrejos
Member
Bill V,
Honors classes, or advanced placement classes.
Honors classes, or advanced placement classes.
Yep.. Thanks for answering for me.. Above a 4.0 comes from honors classes. I could be wrong, but the top student, out of about 800, earned an incredible 4.77. We pushed
Our child into the honors courses early on. It was a challenge for her, but she earned every grade! My previous post, I kinda went on a 'rant' but it is hard to challenge a kid to excel when they see peers "coasting" on race or poverty, and clearly not earning a thing, other than being illegal. Our politicians are failing us. My daughter wants to work for an embassy or areas of the United Nations. She has a brighter future than I do, I guess I can sleep well knowing that we helped her attain this but i just find it terribly frustrating when people ASSume it's their RIGHT, instead of a privilege.
Our child into the honors courses early on. It was a challenge for her, but she earned every grade! My previous post, I kinda went on a 'rant' but it is hard to challenge a kid to excel when they see peers "coasting" on race or poverty, and clearly not earning a thing, other than being illegal. Our politicians are failing us. My daughter wants to work for an embassy or areas of the United Nations. She has a brighter future than I do, I guess I can sleep well knowing that we helped her attain this but i just find it terribly frustrating when people ASSume it's their RIGHT, instead of a privilege.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the clarification guys. They didn't have such things back when I was in school. Or rather, they did, but not in podunk little high schools like mine, and I therefore not only never had the opportunity to take such classes, but also never had reason to learn that they actually doctor the GPAs as a result.
First of all, the law only applies to children of illegal aliens, so lets not blow this out of proportions without knowing all the real facts.
Think about it. The children of illegal aliens did not do anything wrong, and they cannot be held responsible for what their parents did. If a minor child was brought into this country illegally, the child had no say in the matter. If the child was born on US soil, he is not an illegal alien he is a US citizen with dual citizenship and cannot be denied their rights as a US citizen. When they reach 18 they have the option to choose which citizenship they prefer, or they can keep both. To change that would require a Constitutional Amendment and we all know that the only thing Congress and the Senate can pass is is gas, and they are stinking up everything doing it!
The point of the proposal is to encourage all young people to get an education, which the US is quickly falling behind the rest of the world. They are already going to our schools so there is no reason to deny them access to college. The better educated they are the less of a burden they will be on the American society in the future.
The law also provides that if the child was brought into this country by illegal aliens, he can become a US citizen if he gradutes from college, or serves honorably in our armed forces.
Serving in the US military to gain citizenship is not anything new. When I joined the Army back in 1963 I was stationed with a group of about 6 Porto Ricans who were in the military to earn their US citizenship. The difference was they came into this country legally.
I agree that we need to do something about the illegal aliens but I don't think we can punish the children for what their parents did. Should we send you to prison if your father robbed a bank and brought you with him when he did it? Or later, you wore clothes and ate food purchased with the stolen money??
There are an estimated 12+ million illegal aliens in this country. It would be a hopeless task to try to hunt them down, prosecute, and deport them, while more keep coming in. The real issue is that we do not know who these people are, where they live and why they are here? Are they here for economic reasons or are they spies, terrorists, etc.
The states are burdened with the schooling and welfare costs without getting any additional funds from the Federal government because they cannot prove or document who these people are and where they live. The illegal aliens get jobs with false immigration or citizenship documents, but the government goes after the employers. It's the Federal governement who has failed to properly address this issue and they continue to expect the states and taxpayers to pay the costs of what only they have the ability to control.
...Richard
Think about it. The children of illegal aliens did not do anything wrong, and they cannot be held responsible for what their parents did. If a minor child was brought into this country illegally, the child had no say in the matter. If the child was born on US soil, he is not an illegal alien he is a US citizen with dual citizenship and cannot be denied their rights as a US citizen. When they reach 18 they have the option to choose which citizenship they prefer, or they can keep both. To change that would require a Constitutional Amendment and we all know that the only thing Congress and the Senate can pass is is gas, and they are stinking up everything doing it!
The point of the proposal is to encourage all young people to get an education, which the US is quickly falling behind the rest of the world. They are already going to our schools so there is no reason to deny them access to college. The better educated they are the less of a burden they will be on the American society in the future.
The law also provides that if the child was brought into this country by illegal aliens, he can become a US citizen if he gradutes from college, or serves honorably in our armed forces.
Serving in the US military to gain citizenship is not anything new. When I joined the Army back in 1963 I was stationed with a group of about 6 Porto Ricans who were in the military to earn their US citizenship. The difference was they came into this country legally.
I agree that we need to do something about the illegal aliens but I don't think we can punish the children for what their parents did. Should we send you to prison if your father robbed a bank and brought you with him when he did it? Or later, you wore clothes and ate food purchased with the stolen money??
There are an estimated 12+ million illegal aliens in this country. It would be a hopeless task to try to hunt them down, prosecute, and deport them, while more keep coming in. The real issue is that we do not know who these people are, where they live and why they are here? Are they here for economic reasons or are they spies, terrorists, etc.
The states are burdened with the schooling and welfare costs without getting any additional funds from the Federal government because they cannot prove or document who these people are and where they live. The illegal aliens get jobs with false immigration or citizenship documents, but the government goes after the employers. It's the Federal governement who has failed to properly address this issue and they continue to expect the states and taxpayers to pay the costs of what only they have the ability to control.
...Richard
Oh it's definitely a gov't failure. Past AND present. I do recognize that this country was built by immigrants, not saying they were all legal, but a line needs to be drawn somewhere. This country has become famous for rewarding bad behavior. I bought a house I can't afford. Well here is 'reform' to help you, because you didn't do research before buying. I was given to much credit so I could buy 50" lcd's for every room in my house, and now the credit card company is bothering me. Well here is 'reform' to help you out of your responsibility.......again. The gov't is sorry you got into this trouble. My mom and dad came here across the Rio Grande, or a makeshift chevy pickup boat... Reward me!!! Welcome to the US. Not only will we give u a future at the expense of legit taxpayers, but we will supply you with a job in the end.
Is it possible that America has become to free? It's sad that my family is leaving the US, and will be making nearly TRIPLE!! I am a pilot for five more months in the US.. I can double my income by leaving. My wife will still be doubling my new income with her new job.. Our oldest will finish college in the Miami, then head over, our youngest will get triple the education over there compared to the private school in Miami. This is all pretty sad... Because THIS is my country. Our elected officials have lost sight of what's important. They are puppets to the political correctness.
Is it possible that America has become to free? It's sad that my family is leaving the US, and will be making nearly TRIPLE!! I am a pilot for five more months in the US.. I can double my income by leaving. My wife will still be doubling my new income with her new job.. Our oldest will finish college in the Miami, then head over, our youngest will get triple the education over there compared to the private school in Miami. This is all pretty sad... Because THIS is my country. Our elected officials have lost sight of what's important. They are puppets to the political correctness.
There are an estimated 12+ million illegal aliens in this country. It would be a hopeless task to try to hunt them down, prosecute, and deport them, while more keep coming in.
Unfortunately, Richard is right. Amnesty of some sort is inevitable at this point. Laws were broken, though, and there should be repercussions. I'd hate to have to provide solutions to that...
It's the Federal governement who has failed to properly address this issue and they continue to expect the states and taxpayers to pay the costs of what only they have the ability to control.
I agree. Yet, when a state does attempt to make changes, they face lawsuits and charges of "human rights abuses."
Is it possible that America has become to free?
Absolutely not. America has become too fair (as long as hard work and exceptional abilities aren't factored in). We can never be too free. <b>Things</b> can be too free, though, and that is the problem.
Hugh said....
Absolutely not. America has become too fair (as long as hard work and exceptional abilities aren't factored in). We can never be too free. Things can be too free, though, and that is the problem.
I absolutely stand corrected!! Your statement is perfect, thank you.. (sorry I couldn't use the fancy "quote" function.. iPhone....)
Absolutely not. America has become too fair (as long as hard work and exceptional abilities aren't factored in). We can never be too free. Things can be too free, though, and that is the problem.
I absolutely stand corrected!! Your statement is perfect, thank you.. (sorry I couldn't use the fancy "quote" function.. iPhone....)
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Caymen has never paid one penny for anything, ever.
Everything Caymen pays for is paid for by the money given to him by his employers and friends and family that give him gifts of money.
He hasn't paid for anything.
I'm only saying this because that's the same logic for corporations never having paid taxes, ever. They don't pay them because they are paying them with monies given to them.
TJR
Everything Caymen pays for is paid for by the money given to him by his employers and friends and family that give him gifts of money.
He hasn't paid for anything.
I'm only saying this because that's the same logic for corporations never having paid taxes, ever. They don't pay them because they are paying them with monies given to them.
TJR
I have always been an advocate of a limited form of amnesty that will get most of the illegal aliens to come forward and I think would satisfy most Americans who agree that a law was broken and there should be some repercussions.
If you simply want to arrest all 12+ million illegal aliens and put them in jail, that will likely never happen and you would end up with American tax payers paying to feed and house 12+ million more prisoners.
I propose that will allow a period of 6-12 months amnesty for all illegal aliens. This amnesty would require all illegal aliens to apply, be fingerprinted and DNA tested. If they are found to be wanted or previously convicted of other crimes they are not eligible for amnesty.
They must go to a special court and plead guilty to entering this country illegally. They will be convicted and given a 5 year suspended sentence and placed on a special provisionary 5 year probation period.
During this 5 year probation period:
They will be allowed to remain in the United States.
They must not be arrested and convicted of any crimes.
They must remain gainfully employed and pay US taxes.
They must report any changes in jobs or residence.
They may not harbor or assist any other unregistered illegal aliens.
They may not return to their country of origin without prior notification where they will be given a provisional pass to return, that will be only valid for 30 days. If they fail to return within 30 days, they will be dropped from the amnesty program and will not be allowed to re-enter the USA and if caught in the US again, they will be given the full 5 year sentence and deported.
They must report quarterly to a special probation office. If they have complied with all the probationary provisions, they will be issued new documentation that will expire in 90 days when they are due to return for their next quarterly probation monitoring.
Failure to show for their quarterly visit or failing to report job or residence changes will be a violation of their probation. Their documentation will expire and they are subject to arrest, where their full 5 year sentence for entering the country illegally will be administered and they will then be deported.
After successfully completing the 5 year probation, they will be allowed to apply for US citizenship and new ID cards allowing them to remain in the US until their citizenship is processed, or they are free to return to their country of origin.
I dont assume that this solution will please all Americans or all illegal aliens. It will be costly to administer this program, but any solution is going to be expensive. If we can get the existing illegal aliens registered, identified, and working in a productive job, they will be paying taxes that will assist in taking some of the load off of the American tax payers.
Rich
If you simply want to arrest all 12+ million illegal aliens and put them in jail, that will likely never happen and you would end up with American tax payers paying to feed and house 12+ million more prisoners.
I propose that will allow a period of 6-12 months amnesty for all illegal aliens. This amnesty would require all illegal aliens to apply, be fingerprinted and DNA tested. If they are found to be wanted or previously convicted of other crimes they are not eligible for amnesty.
They must go to a special court and plead guilty to entering this country illegally. They will be convicted and given a 5 year suspended sentence and placed on a special provisionary 5 year probation period.
During this 5 year probation period:
They will be allowed to remain in the United States.
They must not be arrested and convicted of any crimes.
They must remain gainfully employed and pay US taxes.
They must report any changes in jobs or residence.
They may not harbor or assist any other unregistered illegal aliens.
They may not return to their country of origin without prior notification where they will be given a provisional pass to return, that will be only valid for 30 days. If they fail to return within 30 days, they will be dropped from the amnesty program and will not be allowed to re-enter the USA and if caught in the US again, they will be given the full 5 year sentence and deported.
They must report quarterly to a special probation office. If they have complied with all the probationary provisions, they will be issued new documentation that will expire in 90 days when they are due to return for their next quarterly probation monitoring.
Failure to show for their quarterly visit or failing to report job or residence changes will be a violation of their probation. Their documentation will expire and they are subject to arrest, where their full 5 year sentence for entering the country illegally will be administered and they will then be deported.
After successfully completing the 5 year probation, they will be allowed to apply for US citizenship and new ID cards allowing them to remain in the US until their citizenship is processed, or they are free to return to their country of origin.
I dont assume that this solution will please all Americans or all illegal aliens. It will be costly to administer this program, but any solution is going to be expensive. If we can get the existing illegal aliens registered, identified, and working in a productive job, they will be paying taxes that will assist in taking some of the load off of the American tax payers.
Rich
buzz worth
Active Member
I've managed to avoid the board for awhile but decided to check in. Still have the 2001 Trac and it's wheeling along just fine in my son's hands.
I see the same cast of malcontents still populates the walls of this fine establishment.
RichardL....it's nice to see someone here has taken the time to either read or educate themselves on this subject, rather than ASS-uming they know what it's about.
If this passes and the children that were too young to have a say in their coming to this country get to follow the rules to citizenship, I hope there is one more stipulation to their staying here.
They should NOT be given the right to bring any and all of their family members in when they achieve their goal of being an American.
OK....back to real life.
Buzz
I see the same cast of malcontents still populates the walls of this fine establishment.
RichardL....it's nice to see someone here has taken the time to either read or educate themselves on this subject, rather than ASS-uming they know what it's about.
If this passes and the children that were too young to have a say in their coming to this country get to follow the rules to citizenship, I hope there is one more stipulation to their staying here.
They should NOT be given the right to bring any and all of their family members in when they achieve their goal of being an American.
OK....back to real life.
Buzz
Caymen has never paid one penny for anything, ever.
I thought you were better than this, but here goes.
Everything Caymen pays for is paid for by the money given to him by his employers and friends and family that give him gifts of money.
I earn the money I work for, such the same as you and everyone here does.
He hasn't paid for anything.
With that being said, then one could say you havent either.
I'm only saying this because that's the same logic for corporations never having paid taxes, ever. They don't pay them because they are paying them with monies given to them.
Yea, makes perfect sense. Of course, it is hard to understand that when someone buys one certain item, all corporate taxes paid to the government is bundled into the cost of the item.
Is this a correct statement?
If that is so, than how much in taxes did the corporation pay or how much did the corporation give us to pay?
If a corporation moves production to outside of the country and no longer has the obligation to pay those taxes, but continues to charge what those staying in this country does, who is getting sold down the river?
When you actually read what I say and understand where I am coming from, what I say is not so obsurd as one may think it is.
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Caymen,
I'm not the one that started by making the absurd statement. My logic holds. If what YOU said is true, than what I said is true. But of course, what I said isn't true, so THEREFORE, your logic is f'ed up! No offense.
Take a breath. Read. You might learn something and see why so many people here have flipped the bozo switch on you and what you have said.
Read on...
Clearly many corporations do pay taxes! You claim they do not. The reasoning you say they don't is because they simply pass the costs of the taxes they pay to the consumer. That may be HOW they pay their taxes, but they do pay their taxes.
Likewise, corporations that pay taxes can decide how and when they pay their taxes, to a large extent. There is a corporate accounting term can NEBT (net-earnings before taxes) which in some large part defines the corporate taxes due on earnings. Again, I'm talking about taxes on earnings, in this case net earnings.
Most corporations attempt to keep NEBT as small as possible. Things that reduce their net earnings are operational costs such as salaries and benefits paid, etc. Also, companies can wish to invest in research (R&D) and these investments can help offset NEBT.
Now, if you were to say that many corporations pay very little in taxes, then that's a statement worth discussing and one which has a lot of merit. A good corporate account will work to make sure that the taxes a company pays on earnings is small, using mechanisms I've described.
But pretty much all corporations pay some type of tax (note, you didn't differentiate corporate taxes on earnings, vs other forms of taxes...of which there are many).
Where these corporations get these funds to pay these taxes is secondary to the fact that they do actually PAY taxes. You are trying to say otherwise, which simply is asnine.
Just as where you or I get the funds to pay for the things we pay for doesn't negate the fact that we pay for them. You've made that case based on my absurd statement based on your logic. So, please use consistent logic, or recant your original absurd statement.
Words have meanings. The word "pay", for example, from Merriam Webster has several meanings:
Note, that in none of these common meanings for the word "pay" does the origin of the funds in any way come into the picture. The root of the monies used for payment does not in any way negate the fact that payment is made.
Words have meaning. Say what you mean, mean what you say, and try to use words that have a common meaning.
Now, if you had said:
Corporations don't pay taxes the same way you or I do. Unlike us, corporations pay much of their taxes by passing the costs on to you or in the prices they charge us for their goods and services. Therefore, we indirectly pay corporate taxes.
Now, had you said that, you would have made your point. But not have said something that is clearly inaccurate: That corporations pay no taxes. That's clearly just not the case.
P.S. I read what you said. It's not until several follow-on posts that you can begin to understand what it is that you are trying to say.
Say what you mean the first time. If you are trying to say that corporations can do, and do do lots of things to avoid paying taxes, then I will agree with that. They are all legal. And most are quite fine with me. Corporations should pay taxes on profits to the tax jurisdiction under which they operatate and should pay their share of employment taxes to the tax jurisdictions of their employees. Beyond that, if they use the corporate and employee tax codes to reduce their tax burden, legally, then good for them.
Corps can do a lot to avoid paying taxes. Most do so legally. So what.
Corporations pay enough taxes just in employment taxes. Smaller govt, less taxes, less picking of my pocket and my employers pocket will allow corps, small businesses, and individuals to prosper, and the ones that work the hardest and the smartest will prosper the most. The only people that don't want that are those looking for welfare, workfare, to be propped up, and for the world to freeze circa 1950...which isn't going to happen.
TJR
I'm not the one that started by making the absurd statement. My logic holds. If what YOU said is true, than what I said is true. But of course, what I said isn't true, so THEREFORE, your logic is f'ed up! No offense.
Take a breath. Read. You might learn something and see why so many people here have flipped the bozo switch on you and what you have said.
Read on...
Clearly many corporations do pay taxes! You claim they do not. The reasoning you say they don't is because they simply pass the costs of the taxes they pay to the consumer. That may be HOW they pay their taxes, but they do pay their taxes.
Likewise, corporations that pay taxes can decide how and when they pay their taxes, to a large extent. There is a corporate accounting term can NEBT (net-earnings before taxes) which in some large part defines the corporate taxes due on earnings. Again, I'm talking about taxes on earnings, in this case net earnings.
Most corporations attempt to keep NEBT as small as possible. Things that reduce their net earnings are operational costs such as salaries and benefits paid, etc. Also, companies can wish to invest in research (R&D) and these investments can help offset NEBT.
Now, if you were to say that many corporations pay very little in taxes, then that's a statement worth discussing and one which has a lot of merit. A good corporate account will work to make sure that the taxes a company pays on earnings is small, using mechanisms I've described.
But pretty much all corporations pay some type of tax (note, you didn't differentiate corporate taxes on earnings, vs other forms of taxes...of which there are many).
Where these corporations get these funds to pay these taxes is secondary to the fact that they do actually PAY taxes. You are trying to say otherwise, which simply is asnine.
Just as where you or I get the funds to pay for the things we pay for doesn't negate the fact that we pay for them. You've made that case based on my absurd statement based on your logic. So, please use consistent logic, or recant your original absurd statement.
Words have meanings. The word "pay", for example, from Merriam Webster has several meanings:
pay
a : to make due return to for services rendered or property delivered b : to engage for money : hire <you couldn't pay me to do that>
2a : to give in return for goods or service <pay wages> b : to discharge indebtedness for : settle <pay a bill> c : to make a disposal or transfer of (money)
3: to give or forfeit in expiation or retribution <pay the penalty>
4a : to make compensation for b : to requite according to what is deserved <pay them back>
5: to give, offer, or make freely or as fitting <pay attention> <pay your respects>
6a : to return value or profit to <it pays you to stay open> b : to bring in as a return <an investment paying five percent>
Note, that in none of these common meanings for the word "pay" does the origin of the funds in any way come into the picture. The root of the monies used for payment does not in any way negate the fact that payment is made.
Words have meaning. Say what you mean, mean what you say, and try to use words that have a common meaning.
Now, if you had said:
Corporations don't pay taxes the same way you or I do. Unlike us, corporations pay much of their taxes by passing the costs on to you or in the prices they charge us for their goods and services. Therefore, we indirectly pay corporate taxes.
Now, had you said that, you would have made your point. But not have said something that is clearly inaccurate: That corporations pay no taxes. That's clearly just not the case.
P.S. I read what you said. It's not until several follow-on posts that you can begin to understand what it is that you are trying to say.
Say what you mean the first time. If you are trying to say that corporations can do, and do do lots of things to avoid paying taxes, then I will agree with that. They are all legal. And most are quite fine with me. Corporations should pay taxes on profits to the tax jurisdiction under which they operatate and should pay their share of employment taxes to the tax jurisdictions of their employees. Beyond that, if they use the corporate and employee tax codes to reduce their tax burden, legally, then good for them.
Corps can do a lot to avoid paying taxes. Most do so legally. So what.
Corporations pay enough taxes just in employment taxes. Smaller govt, less taxes, less picking of my pocket and my employers pocket will allow corps, small businesses, and individuals to prosper, and the ones that work the hardest and the smartest will prosper the most. The only people that don't want that are those looking for welfare, workfare, to be propped up, and for the world to freeze circa 1950...which isn't going to happen.
TJR
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Without time to really get into Richard's proposal right now, I like the basic premise.
If I'm correctly following Tom's logic:
A company doesn't pay taxes because they pass those costs onto the consumer.
You provide a service for your employer. You don't actually pay taxes because that is bundled into your what your employer pays for your service. If you didn't have to pay taxes, you could lower the cost of your service and not pass that expense on to your employer.
Of course, you wouldn't accept a lower pay just because you longer have to pay taxes. You wouldn't consider that an decrease in your production costs, just an increase in profits which you so obviously deserve and worked so hard for.
Its circular and doesn't really make any sense to say that a corporation doesn't pay taxes. Its included into their costs, yes. But it is also included in the amount you charge your employer in the form of wages. Your assertion remains absurd.
If I'm correctly following Tom's logic:
A company doesn't pay taxes because they pass those costs onto the consumer.
You provide a service for your employer. You don't actually pay taxes because that is bundled into your what your employer pays for your service. If you didn't have to pay taxes, you could lower the cost of your service and not pass that expense on to your employer.
Of course, you wouldn't accept a lower pay just because you longer have to pay taxes. You wouldn't consider that an decrease in your production costs, just an increase in profits which you so obviously deserve and worked so hard for.
Its circular and doesn't really make any sense to say that a corporation doesn't pay taxes. Its included into their costs, yes. But it is also included in the amount you charge your employer in the form of wages. Your assertion remains absurd.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Hugh gets it. He sees the illogic in the assertion that Caymen made to back up his statement, and he does so using the same example that I gave which Caymen seems to imply isn't the same basic example as what he is describing.
Corporations pay taxes. Period. They do and the proof that they do is in the simple fact there there is a form called IRS 1120. I run a corporation. I've filed a 1120 for 8 years now. I can assure you there is at least ONE corporation that pays taxes. Therefore, the statement that "corporations do not pay taxes" is simply false.
TJR
Corporations pay taxes. Period. They do and the proof that they do is in the simple fact there there is a form called IRS 1120. I run a corporation. I've filed a 1120 for 8 years now. I can assure you there is at least ONE corporation that pays taxes. Therefore, the statement that "corporations do not pay taxes" is simply false.
TJR
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Doh!
TJR,
I get it too...especially the part about Tom and the Bozo Switch. That is a classic line :bwahaha:
Watch out because Caymen will soon switch gears again and deny he said anything, or he was just kidding.
I think we need a Caymen imodicon.. One of those smiley faces sticking his foot in his mouth !! :grin:
...Rich
I get it too...especially the part about Tom and the Bozo Switch. That is a classic line :bwahaha:
Watch out because Caymen will soon switch gears again and deny he said anything, or he was just kidding.
I think we need a Caymen imodicon.. One of those smiley faces sticking his foot in his mouth !! :grin:
...Rich
:back2topic: I DO NOT like amnesty, just for the record. But here is why it is unavoidable now.
Just consider some logistics. Look up the information on how long a total troop withdrawal would take from the middle east. Now, all of those troops are easily identifiable, their locations are known, and they <b>want</b> to leave. I'm not going to do it for anyone, but I've seen the information on how long it would take and how much money it would cost for a total troop withdrawal.
Now compare that to trying to find unidentifiable persons, working in the black market, with unknown locations scattered across 48 states under the authority of thousands of municipalities, and they <b>do not want</b> to leave. How long do you think it would take and how much money would it require? Use some logic people, please. It hurts my feelings, too, that there are millions of law breaking people running around free to work/travel and earn as they please with no consequences to their illegality or payment of taxes. But I keep my feelings separate from my logic.
How about a more similar example? Drug dealers. How long have we been waging an absolutely fruitless "war on drugs?" How much money has been spent? Do you think there are any less drugs available in the US than there were in the 80s? We have an entire government agency (probably a big part of the problem, lol) whose sole purpose is to battle illegal drugs. We have intelligence set up, monitoring the major movers and small time thugs. Every major city has a drug task force. They know who are moving drugs, where these people live, the establishments they frequent, etc. And yet, marijuana is being debated for legalization (a topic I'll avoid here), cocaine is still readily available, heroin is being imported from a country we occupy, and meth is wreaking havoc on white trash. Absolute failure as an agency, waste of time and money, don't you think?
So, if we did set up an entire government agency whose purpose is to identify, arrest and deport illegal aliens, do you think they'd be successful? Oh, wait, we <b>ALREADY HAVE THAT!</b> The INS. Would more money make them more successful? Would your higher taxes somehow put more money in your pocket because a few thousand illegal aliens are actually deported each month? Absolutely not. <b>THINK!</b>
Think logically, people. Amnesty is unavoidable. I hate it, but its just math and awareness of the world around you. If you just think about the situation rather than spew the fear/hatred you hear on tv and from other non-thinking people around you, you may think of actual solutions to today's issues. I like where Richard's mind is at. I don't know if it would be a good plan because its complicated to unwrap situations like these and see all the effects, but he did something unique in today's climate. He offered a thought out solution to a real world problem. He didn't ask that you print off a chain email, sign it, and mail it to your representative who isn't listening anyway. But there is obviously the use of some logic. I urge others to follow suit.
Disagree? Tell me <b>HOW</b> deporting 12+ million people is feasible. Give me an example of how a similar feat has ever been accomplished (please don't mention Hitler). Tell me how you would justify denying a kid college admittance because his parents didn't live like yours did (some people act like there is a shortage of colleges). Tell me why an illegal alien poses more of a threat to your career than China does. Do you want the job the Mexican is doing, or do you want the one that moved their operations overseas? Be honest, now.
I don't like the illegality of many of our immigrants. I don't fear those people, though. I don't like the idea of simply giving them a free pass with amnesty, either. But I realize the practicality of the other solutions offered.
I guess what this long rant is all about is just a frustration with people's inability, or refusal, to <b>THINK</b>.
Just consider some logistics. Look up the information on how long a total troop withdrawal would take from the middle east. Now, all of those troops are easily identifiable, their locations are known, and they <b>want</b> to leave. I'm not going to do it for anyone, but I've seen the information on how long it would take and how much money it would cost for a total troop withdrawal.
Now compare that to trying to find unidentifiable persons, working in the black market, with unknown locations scattered across 48 states under the authority of thousands of municipalities, and they <b>do not want</b> to leave. How long do you think it would take and how much money would it require? Use some logic people, please. It hurts my feelings, too, that there are millions of law breaking people running around free to work/travel and earn as they please with no consequences to their illegality or payment of taxes. But I keep my feelings separate from my logic.
How about a more similar example? Drug dealers. How long have we been waging an absolutely fruitless "war on drugs?" How much money has been spent? Do you think there are any less drugs available in the US than there were in the 80s? We have an entire government agency (probably a big part of the problem, lol) whose sole purpose is to battle illegal drugs. We have intelligence set up, monitoring the major movers and small time thugs. Every major city has a drug task force. They know who are moving drugs, where these people live, the establishments they frequent, etc. And yet, marijuana is being debated for legalization (a topic I'll avoid here), cocaine is still readily available, heroin is being imported from a country we occupy, and meth is wreaking havoc on white trash. Absolute failure as an agency, waste of time and money, don't you think?
So, if we did set up an entire government agency whose purpose is to identify, arrest and deport illegal aliens, do you think they'd be successful? Oh, wait, we <b>ALREADY HAVE THAT!</b> The INS. Would more money make them more successful? Would your higher taxes somehow put more money in your pocket because a few thousand illegal aliens are actually deported each month? Absolutely not. <b>THINK!</b>
Think logically, people. Amnesty is unavoidable. I hate it, but its just math and awareness of the world around you. If you just think about the situation rather than spew the fear/hatred you hear on tv and from other non-thinking people around you, you may think of actual solutions to today's issues. I like where Richard's mind is at. I don't know if it would be a good plan because its complicated to unwrap situations like these and see all the effects, but he did something unique in today's climate. He offered a thought out solution to a real world problem. He didn't ask that you print off a chain email, sign it, and mail it to your representative who isn't listening anyway. But there is obviously the use of some logic. I urge others to follow suit.
Disagree? Tell me <b>HOW</b> deporting 12+ million people is feasible. Give me an example of how a similar feat has ever been accomplished (please don't mention Hitler). Tell me how you would justify denying a kid college admittance because his parents didn't live like yours did (some people act like there is a shortage of colleges). Tell me why an illegal alien poses more of a threat to your career than China does. Do you want the job the Mexican is doing, or do you want the one that moved their operations overseas? Be honest, now.
I don't like the illegality of many of our immigrants. I don't fear those people, though. I don't like the idea of simply giving them a free pass with amnesty, either. But I realize the practicality of the other solutions offered.
I guess what this long rant is all about is just a frustration with people's inability, or refusal, to <b>THINK</b>.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Hugh,
You make a lot of sense.
That's the problem, though. Sense, logic, reality, they unfortunately are often in short supply when discussing an emotional topic rooted in seemingly a "black and white" sense of right and wrong.
When people do illegal things they shouldn't be rewarded. I agree with that.
When there is a right way to do things we should encourage that. I agree with that too.
Illegals are breaking the law. I agree with that.
Illegals aren't citizens therefore they should not be afforeded the same rights and benefits as our citizens. Yep...I agree with that as well.
I agree with all of these, and more. But, even though I agree with all of the above, I still, like you, don't see mass deportation working, ever. It won't work. Also, I don't agree that many of today's ills are caused in any large part by illegals. I think they are a convenient scapegoat.
I'm not defending their actions. I'm not even defending anything about them. I'm just saying those doing the chest beating to get rid of them are looking at the whole issue in far too simplistic terms.
TJR
You make a lot of sense.
That's the problem, though. Sense, logic, reality, they unfortunately are often in short supply when discussing an emotional topic rooted in seemingly a "black and white" sense of right and wrong.
When people do illegal things they shouldn't be rewarded. I agree with that.
When there is a right way to do things we should encourage that. I agree with that too.
Illegals are breaking the law. I agree with that.
Illegals aren't citizens therefore they should not be afforeded the same rights and benefits as our citizens. Yep...I agree with that as well.
I agree with all of these, and more. But, even though I agree with all of the above, I still, like you, don't see mass deportation working, ever. It won't work. Also, I don't agree that many of today's ills are caused in any large part by illegals. I think they are a convenient scapegoat.
I'm not defending their actions. I'm not even defending anything about them. I'm just saying those doing the chest beating to get rid of them are looking at the whole issue in far too simplistic terms.
TJR
