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You don't have to join a union or pay union dues to have collective bargaining. Under federal labor law, when two or more employees go to management with a problem, there is collective bargaining happening.



Sorry, but I would rather speak for myself than to have to pay some "shepard" to speak on my behalf. I can represent myself just fine.
 
Gavin,



Good for you. I am glad you are that sure of yourself. Get two people together and ask for a raise, lower cost for your benefits, or more vacation time. I am sure they will go out of your way to help you.





Tom
 
I see a lot of sour grapes here. I see other "unskilled" workers upset that somebody else that is unskilled makes more money than them. I also love these figures that are tossed about. Many times these hourly and yearly rates that are quoted include employee's health insurance premiums, sick leave and vacation pay as well as 401k contributions and overtime.
 
The state of Missouri has spent over $12,142 per Ford employee just to help keep the plant open since 2002!!! Do you see anything wrong with that? Even with this heavy subsidy, Ford still can't compete with other automakers!
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Well the state of Missouri probably collects about that much every year in payroll taxes from that employee. Add in the sales taxes and property taxes and it's a damn smart business move on the state's part.
 
Eathen,



You hit the nail on the head.



In Hazelwood, the speculation is concerning, considering the approximate 1,400 union workers there earn, on average, <B>nearly $65,000 annually with overtime.</B> The average Missourian earns about half that. United Auto Workers Local 325 President Ken Dearing did not return a phone call seeking comment. In 2002, Ford announced plans to close the Hazelwood plant
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.



Make $18.00/hr and work 12 hrs a day, 7 days a week and you can make the same. Making $10.00/hr working as mentioned, you can make $55,000/yr.



I guess someone making $10.00/hr is overpaid if you only look at the numbers and not anything else.





Tom
 
Good for you. I am glad you are that sure of yourself. Get two people together and ask for a raise, lower cost for your benefits, or more vacation time. I am sure they will go out of your way to help you.
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Where is a company REQUIRED to give you any/all of these? I didn't get a raise this year, neither did anyone in my company. A $20 million company losing $2 million last year hurts the bottom line. It wouldn't have mattered if any group here was Union, they would have been out the door in the cost cutting measures taken earlier just as many of the hourly/salaried ranks were.



If you actually see what a company is Required to do by law for it's employees, vacation, benefits and raises are all a goodwill gesture. Most companies also recognize that without these features, the ability to keep quality workers is greatly reduced. Union or not.



As I have stated, I've been on both sides- Unionized and management. I have yet to see ANYTHING that unions did that couldn't have been taken care of by respectful (something every union I've ever been involved with forgets) negotiations between employeer and employee.



All I have ever seen Unions do is cause strife, envy, distrust, negativity, poor profits/bankruptcy, obscenely rediculous requirements for working conditions, redundancy in the workforce, redundancy in diciplinary issues, redundancy in paperwork, reductions in worker pay (ie dues for the union "privilege") and lack of vested interest in producing quality. That is not to say that all unionized workers fit in all these categories, but many fit in at least one.



Again, my opinion based on my experience.
 
Caymen you stated
Delphi wants to cut the Union wages, then give the money saved as a bonus to the Salary higher ups.



Isn't that nice of them.
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I am curious how you know this. Is there any documentation that I can access that will show me this or is this something that was told to you. I am not being confrontational by this. I am just trying to get the staright facts.
 
MikeC,



I read it in the newspaper.



I am unable to access my local papers archives, so I did a search elsewhere. Here is something along those lines.



http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051126/BUSINESS/511260365/1003





Tom
 
R Shek,



You are exactly right about the company not required to give you any benefits of any kind. All they are required to do is pay you minimum wage.



What incentive does a company have to give you those benefits? The fact that a union can come in and stand up for what is right, with the consent of the employees that voted yes to a union.



Sure, the idea of employees walking out and ging to work somewhere else is another incentive, but lets get real.



How many manufacturers build what I build?



Nobody else. We are the only ones.



A security guard does not carry a gun. A security guard does help prevent crime.



Sure, there are some unions out there that have become powerfull, but how much of that was brought ut by the company itself. Where I used to work at, they played the games over and over. The company got a bad @$$ attitude, and the union fought back. Finally they came to an agreement and things between the two are peacefull. We don't strike at the drop of the had, back then we did. We don't demand big raises, back then when the company was making billions, we asked for more money. When times are slow, we understand that is the way it is. We take that into consideration.



It is all about give and take. Sometimes we give, other times we take. When we are giving, the company is taking.



The best part about being union is knowing that if I do "this" I will get fired and, by contract, the union has nothing to say in my defense. If I get layed off, I know that the company has to hire me back once work picks back up. If they decide to work people 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, that means they can hire some people back, the union can tell them it is time to make the phone calls. If I get the call and I don't want to come back, I have that right to say no. If I get suspended for something, I know that the company must prove the wrong doing and if I am found not responsible for the aleged wrong doing, I get paid for the time I had off.



A contract between the employees and employer is fair for both sides. Abide by the contract and everything is fine.





Tom
 
I think it's pretty amusing that everybody wants to point a finger at the unions, but it's the company officers that agreed to the union contracts in the first place. If those wages are unaffordable, and hurt the company, why did they agree to those terms?
 
Ethan,



Keep in mind that a good company will carry strike insurance that will cover the company incase there is an employee walk-out. So money is not always the issue.





Tom
 
Ethan, ever hear of extortion? Why would the person being extorted pay? I think you answered your own question.



Caymen, I read your reference and do agree that exorbitant pay and bonuses are wrong. Blatantly wrong.
 
MikeC,



How about those companies that will lock out the employees to make them sign a contract. it happens all the time. Would be considered extortion?





Tom
 
Lockout are extortion, granted however, since it's the owners/mangers of the facility and you walk into thier property, they have the right to keep anyone and/or everyone they want out of their facility in any legal means necessary. A strike and a lockout are not interchangable and are not comparable.



A strike is done by workers. The company should be able to hire people to work in the positions of those that walked off the job. If it were my company, if you struck, that's the same to me as quitting. Pick up your last paycheck at the guard gate. Now, some places that's not the most legal thing to do, but what the difference between that and 20 people getting fed up and walking out and quitting? Nothing. You are getting paid to be at your station for x hours. If you get up and walk out, you have said you quit. Sorry. Good luck to ya.
 
R Shek,



Since you "own" the shop, you agree to those terms by contract. You can not fire us for going on strike, you signed a contract that is binding by law. You fire us, you must pay us dearly for that and you must keep your shop closed for a specific ammount of time. Don't forget, you have payments to make on everything. While we are on strike, you get paid without getting any work done. It is called strike insurance. You loose nothing but loss of production, some revenue will still come in. While we are locked out, we get unemployment benefits you must pay for.



Think your "plan" would work to your benefit?



Yu seem like the type of person that would bankrupt the company on purpose so you would "win".





Tom
 
Caymen says:
Yu seem like the type of person that would bankrupt the company on purpose so you would "win".
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That seems to the point of contention with large companies like GM that are going down the tubes. Both sides are pointing the finger at the other blaming them for the state of the corporation. Unions are blaming GM execs with running the company into the ground and not being properous and being able to meet their demands; and executives are blaming unions and their demands as the reason they can't make a profit.



Typically, when that kind of thing happens, there is enough blame on both sides to go around.



I really think both are at fault, unions have bound employers to benefits and wages that they just can't provide (downsizing, rightsizing and cutbacks have been a way of life the pastg 20 years in the non-union world), and executives have failed in creating a profitable business given what is clearly forecastable costs of union employees.



And, our government continues to prop up companies like GM.



Dinosaurs become extinct often because they are too big to live through radical change. Unions added to the bueracracy, IMHO.



TJR
 
Or even better yet, as the employees to help the company out, then as Republic Steel did, take the money and clse the doors anyways. The union helped the company, they used the money to line thier pockets.



Delphi wants the union to lower the wages down to $8.50 to $10.00 per hour. The money saved will be given to the executives so they will stick around.



Sticking it to the little guy. If pension accounts would have been properly funded, states would initiate a health care system that covers everyone, and limit the ammount of imported goods vs. exported goods, we would have little to worry about.



When you ship work overseas, you loose that work. Uemployment rates can be misleading. If the average person used to make $50,000/year 5 years ago with a unemployment rate of 7% then today the average person makes $20,000/year with a 4% unemployment rate, what is a better situation to be in?



The numbers I listed were made up, but I am just trying to demonstrate how the unemployment percentage rate can be very misleading.





Tom
 

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