Big difference between components and coax speakers???

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Ken Stewart

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I have a nice-sounding system so why am I asking this question??? Because I'm a guy and want more,:lol:. Anyway, I just purchased a high-end sub (Image Dynamics) to replace my Rockford Fosgate (going up for sale). I currently have nice Polk DB570s in all four doors, but am now looking to upgrade to higher-end speakers. I'm not the guy thumping down the street and waking every1 up, but I do love my music very clear and full-range.



So, for you audiophiles ... is there really a big difference by going to a component system (separate tweets, midbasses, external crossovers) vice full-range coax speakers? My Polks have an integrated 2-way crossover, sound good, but will I notice much of a difference by going w/a separated system?



I know this is subjective to the listener (disclaimer for those who will say this already :p), so all opinions and facts welcome :)
 
i suggest going to componants if you plan on making kick panels for the mid range speaker. if you are just going to put them in the door, it is a waste of mid range. of course this is my opinion and you will get 100 different opinons on here....:)



also a componant set is going to require an amp and a crossover. most componants sets come with passive crossover. wattage is your friend and doesnt mean LOUD music, it means clear music, especially if they are set up correctly and match the speakers they are powering.
 
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Sorry, should have clarified earlier. I have a California Profile, 50x4 amp powering all four speakers, also separate 200watt powering my sub. Fmarano ... I do plan on mounting them in the doors, I'm not a fabricator so I don't know how to make kickpanels. Ok, hope this clarifies my setup further, more opinions/facts please :D
 
In my opinion you cant have a high end or clear sound without components, if your not going to getthem then dont waste your money on the rest. Of course thats my opinion. I am running alpine type-r components (spr57ls) off of a clarion 60 x 4 amp and they are amazing.



Dallas
 
I just finished installing an Alpine CD head unit, Polk coax in all doors, Rockford P4004 4 Channel amp for the door speakers, Rockford DSM100 (bridged) for the 10 inch CWells subbox with an Alpine sub.... It sounds perty darn nice!... Oh yeah, put in XM too.... It's amazing how much of a difference the 4 channel amp made....
 
First it is a little hard to find decent 5x7 or 6x8 components.



Second the ST isn't set up for components so you will have to either drill a hole for the tweeter or get the qlogic kick panels (I don't even know if they are made for the ST). And if they do have kick panels they are mounted down by your feet. Not the best place for them and I don't think worth the trouble.



There is a difference between a component set and a two way speaker. But I don't think enough to go to all the trouble to get them to fit.



Finally polks are good speakers. I am running a full polk system except for my head unit and I wouldn't trade it for anything. If you want better speakers I would suggest Focal but get ready to pay!
 
I have owned ( in my past) rockford fosgate 6.5 components, MB quart 5.25 components and now Alpine Type-r 5x7 Components. I can honestly say the alpine are the best of the bunch. I will take pics tonight of the set up as they are mounted beautifully with the tweeters facing the passenger and still having a nice flush look.



I have the type-r coaxials in the rear to fill the cab but almost wish I went with components all around. You should not have to manufacture kick panels, everything fit great. Also remember, the quality of amplifier is what makes the stereo, not only the speakers, you can buy great speakers and run them off your deck or a cheap amp and you are basically elminating the amouont of money you spent on the speakers. You shouldn't cheap out if you are trying to get a great sounding system. If you really appreciate good sound quality... ( and no matter how good your coaxials are they will never measure up to a good pair of components.... NEVER) .... GET COMPONENTS.



Coaxials are good for someone that wants and good or above stock system, but if you are truly looking for a increase in sound quality then the choice is obvious.



Dallas



Can you tell im bored and really trying to get my point across... hahahah



 
Looking forward to the pics Dallas and appreciate inputs from everyone, thanks :) I've never fabbed anything before but what I've seen doesn't seem very difficult, just little time consuming. I'll either have to get adapter plates or fab some out of wood myself ... the tweets will be interesting, will have to look for adapters for those too I imagine. As you can tell, setup suggestions are also requested :)



I'm also having trouble deciding between going with the newer carbon series components from Polk or the older DB series components (less money, but still good systems). Still tossing around other brands, but have been very happy with Polks :)
 
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Ken - All things the same (drivers, crossovers, etc.) coaxials will sound better than components because there are fewer problems with phase coherence and time alignment. Coaxial speakers are better at maintaining the time and phase relationship coming from the two drivers. That said, most speaker companies do not put high end drivers in coax speakers becauae of the marketing perception that components are superior. MB Quart used to make an excellent coax, as did Infinity. In high end studio monitors and pa systems, components are the norm for flexibility, power handling and ease of repair, but the coaxials are mechanically/theoretically superior.



If you go with components, place them as close together as possible for the best imaging. Placing the tweets high and the mids low is a common mistake which some think improves imaging. It does not, it merely raises the location cue of the tweets and makes it seem like the image is raised. It also increases listener fatigue over long periods of listening. When speakers are placed properly, it will sound like the drum set, not just the cymbals and "s" sounds, is placed on your hood and the singers head is in the middle of your windshield.



Location is critical to good imaging. The best location for your drivers is where there is less difference in the distance from your ears, that measurement is called the "delta". For instance, placing the drivers in the doors puts them closer to your ears, but the difference in distance from your head is greater for the left and right channel. To understand this, use a tape measure to check the distance from your left ear to the left door speaker, then measure the distance from your right ear to the right door and subtract the smaller number from the larger number, that is your "delta". Now do the same measurements to the kick panels and get that delta. I bet the delta to the kicks is a smaller number thant the delta to the doors. Smaller delta = better imaging. The kick panels are superior location because of this, assuming there is no weird blockage and I don't mean a persons legs. Do a Google search on the Speaker Works Buick, the winningest audio competitor of all time. These were the first guys to use a lot of Image Dynmamics stuff, pioneered the use of hornsunder the dash and converted Rane professional pa equipment (a middle level proaudio brand) for use in automobiles. http://www.termpro.com/showcars/terminator/ca1096.html



The best example of this in practice are the Image Dynamics horns that mount under the dash. Also, look at the placements of the drivers on high end sound quality, not SPL competitors and show cars, winners.



Also, if your rear fill speakers are too loud and have too much high frequency, they will detract from imaging. Remember the sound you hear live comes from the front and the sound from the rear is reflected off the back wall with reduced amplitude and high frequency content.



Unless you are in a Lexus or Benz, sound deadening is a great idea. I did an install in my 1994 Explorer Sport where I sprayed deadener (some blue stuff from Crutchfield) in the doors, quarter panels, tailgate and all over the floor. It was so much quieter in the car, the system sounded MUCH better. When I closed the door, it sounded like a Benz. Check out Dynamat and Mr. Gasket.



Generally, car audio is all about hype and fashion, it is not about high quality engineering and acoustic reproduction. I will hold Image Dynamics up as ONE of the exceptions. Sounds weird I know, but where else will people tell you that a system with a $ 200 stiffening capacitor sounds better than a $ 50 stiffening cap. Where 12v power supplies are concerned a 1 farad cap is a 1 farad cap. Period. Granted, there is value to some people in blinking lights, voltage readouts and cool looking stuff, but you asked an audio quality question, not a "cool points" question.



If you REALLY want to understand sound, go ge
 
Whoa, now that's great info Dale, ty :) I've already begun the sound deadening/vibration deadening. Have one layer in the front doors, soon to take out seats and do the whole bottom of ST, back panel, tossing around roof though (hate to mess w/headliner).



Your reply was just in time, I was close to buying some MB Quarts components. I went to the website and read the info and it sure was enlightening at the least. Now, you've got me thinking of:



- Higher-end coaxes

- kick panels



For cost though, I may just move up to higher-end coaxes and either learn to fab my own panels or search around for someone/company that makes them for the ST. Do you have suggestions on higher-quality (yes, I'm all about SQ not SPL) coaxes and kick-panel info? Oh, and should the coaxes come w/external crossovers?



Thanks,

Ken
 
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Replying to my own reply :D. Anyway, for anyone still following this thread, I made my decision. Thanks everyone for your help; however, the grand prize goes to Dale for pointing me to a very insightful website where they tested how audio actually works in a vehicle ... sold me!!!



I decided to go w/nice(r) coaxes for my ST to put in the doors and move them to kick panels after I learn how to do it myself (sounds like a fun project). I bought Image Dynamics CTX 6s (6.5"s) to match my Image Dynamics 8" sub coming in the next few days. CarDomain had these puppies for $116.95 shipped!! So, complete ID system ... debating on taking out the rear speakers, may just fade them for now and turn them back on when I have back seat riders.



I've visited several custom audio shops today and the Image Dynamics rec'd positive comments from every single one while other brands tended to get more competition depending on where I went and what they sold ... Focal, MB Quarts, Diamond Audio, etc.). To be honest, of all the speakers I listened to, the MB Quarts had the warmest, most natural sound in my opinion in case you wondered. The Focals were also very nice but at a higher price point than the MBs for identical performance (again my opinion).
 
Glad I could help. Sounds like you answered your own question about the coax's. I have MB Quart and think they are the best for my ears, but the ID and Focal are phenomenal.



I remember one BMW 5-series where the installer took components from a set of B&W Nautilus home speakers ($ 12,000 a pair) and mounted them on motorized lifts in the far corners of the dash. He then mounted the B&W subs (13" I think) in the footwells with the magnets contained by the rearward section of the front fenders and inner fender.



Good luck with the system, it sounds like you are on the path to a great sounding setup.



Also, regarding kick panels, you can buy Q-Logic panels that are already covered to match factory colors. If there is no set specific to the ST, they make a universal driver mount that you attach to the factory panels. I am certain there are memebers here who can tell you if the Explorer or Ranger panels will fit. If all else fails, some fleece fabric and fiberglass resin is the tip.
 
Thanks Dale and I'm sure it will sound great when I get it together. Still no complaints on my Polk setup, but I just thought it was time to step up another level. Passing the Polks on to my son who's looking forward to installing them in his car soon. I'll search for the universal kicks, not much room though down there so looks like it will have to be a deeper recessed (closer to firewall) design ... will look and do some measuring.



Now I'm debating on whether to get an Eclipse or Kenwood (HD radio) head unit :D.
 
booooooo... you show me one competition sound quality car that doesnt have components and WINS. Bet you wont find one. (not an SPL or DB comp, but sound quality.)
 
Big D - I pointed out that most manufacturers don't put the best components into their coax's. The biggest reason is because the mass market won't pay big bucks for them. Still doesn't invalidate the fact that , as I said all things equal, coax's sound better.
 
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