Alternator Dying-Updated 1/1/11

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I'll disconnect the positive battery cable tonight



I only said what I said beceause you said the above... LOL :grin:



SO ??? ITS morning !!!!!!



LOL



Todd Z
 
Yep, it is indeed. And I measured 12.04VDC in the battery. So I'm changing the alternator tonight.
 
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l1tech,

I only asked because I felt that a Ford tech would have been told why the system remains on, and what is being shut down at each stage? I know it would be a question I would ask, and that's why I asked you.



I know somethings remain on in a standby mode, and I can accept that it may be better to shut down things in stages. I just think it's strange to leave other things on from 10-45 minutes after the ignition is shut off?



...Rich
 
TT, a new battery holds 12.62 vdc. After some use it will hold 12.56 vdc. if the charging is working. I would put a charge on the battery. Then load test it. Cheaper than an altenator.





"DISCLAIMER, ALL THIS INFO IS POSIBILITIES"

 
I would load test the battery and bench test the alternator prior to changing anything.



I would put a charge on the battery. Then load test it.



This might be a stupid question, but here goes anyway: Exactly how do I accomplish what's being suggested by Les and Eddie at home, in my own garage, without professional diagnostic equipment? I'm trying to save money by doing this repair myself.



TT, a new battery holds 12.62 vdc. After some use it will hold 12.56 vdc.



Really? That's a pretty bold, blanket statement to say that every new battery (regardless of type/brand, etc.) holds exactly 12.62VDC when new and exactly12.56VDC after "some use". I find it hard to believe that there isn't some minor variance in battery voltages from one brand to another, and between the various battery types.
 
TT,,I have never had a good battery hold less than 12.5 vdc.

That is my experiace with various brands. once they started holding less than 12.2 or 12.3. I could put my 100amp load tester on them. they would pull down to 8 vdc in 10 seconds. With my vom they pulled down to 10 vdc or less on cranking.

This is just my experiance.
 
RIchard L



First and foremost I do not work for Ford nor would I ever work for any manufacturer...I refuse to drop myself to their levels...as you can tell I am not fond of dealership mechanics and have never met one that could ever provide me any useful information. Delaership techs are good for one thing and that is diagnosing pattern failures on newer vehicles..JMHO



RichardL,11/17/2010 09:46 MT



. I just think it's strange to leave other things on from 10-45 minutes after the ignition is shut off?



I don't know if that's worse or having an automatuic transmission with no dipstick. or how about a Mercedes Benz that has no engine oil dipstick...manufacturers do strange things indeed.
 


This might be a stupid question, but here goes anyway: Exactly how do I accomplish what's being suggested by Les and Eddie at home, in my own garage, without professional diagnostic equipment?



In your own garage without the proper equipment, not going to happen. But, both can be done by most auto parts stores at no charge to you.
 
Les, It comes from being a tool freak. A motorhead and years of collecting.LOL

I like to look into my own problems. Until I get stumped. Then I will ask Richard L....:eek:nline:
 
In your own garage without the proper equipment, not going to happen. But, both can be done by most auto parts stores at no charge to you.



Les,



As I stated in my original posting that started this thread, I already did that. Both at Auto Zone and Advance Auto Parts. I purposely went to two different stores to have it tested and see if they got the same, or different results (without me saying anything at the second store to steer them in any certain direction). After testing the system, both stores arrived at the same conclusion: Bad diodes in the alternator draining the battery.
 
After testing the system,



Andy, if I read this right you tested the system while the parts were on the truck, now the parts are removed from the truck. Now that they are isolated, have them retested, if you can. Based on your conclusions, the battery should load test good, and the alternator will show diode leakage on the test bench. If the battery tests good and the alternator shows leakage you are good to go, but if both are good, then your problem is somewhere else and you will be stuck with an alternator you don't need. The battery can reveal correct voltage, but not carry a load (amps).
 
TrainTrac,11/17/2010 15:34 MT



, both stores arrived at the same conclusion: Bad diodes in the alternator draining the battery.



I'm sorry but that is an impossible diagnosis to make with just a machine hooked up to the battery, if the alternator fixes the draw problem it is bacuse they got lucky not because they PROPERLY diagnosed the problem.
 
Sorry if I mislead you, Les. I never said anything about having yet removing anything from the Trac. All I've done so far is drive it as is to two different auto parts stores and have them them test the vehicle, and then I disconnected the battery and let the Trac sit overnight, measuring the battery voltage the night before and then in the morning.
 
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Andy, I just wanted to be sure you were testing the system, not the individual parts. As l1tech said, it would be more luck than anything to determine the exact cause. Just trying to be sure you don't spend $200 plus on a part you don't need.
 
:soap:



The equipment we had at Advance when I worked there could diagnose problems like a bad diode on the vehicle. There were three connections to be made for a test to be done properly. The positive terminal, then the negative terminal. With just those two connections we can test the power in the battery, and perform a load test based off the battery's listed CCA's. The we can proceed from there if everything tests ok with the battery by connecting an amp clamp around the negative battery cable, with the arrow indicated on the clamp facing the direction to the battery. Then we do a test with the vehicle running, no load on the system at low and higher RPM's, and again test the system loaded (AC on, High beams, Defroster fan) the same way. Once that test is complete we can perform a battery drain test. Anything over an amp draw with it all shut down was pretty suspect in my opinion. I would watch the meter step down over time on the battery draw after the vehicle was shut off. I would provide the customer with a diagnostic print out and recommend they have the system tested elsewhere as well rather than just take my word for it. 9 out of 10 times they would be back after the other tests to purchase the part we discussed.



As the manager, at my store priority one was making sure everyone knew how to use the equipment PROPERLY. On many site visits to other stores I would see employees out in the lot improperly testing things. Just before I left Advance (Wife took a job in CA, and no Advance out here so I had to leave) we had been setting up extensive company wide off-site training that was mandatory to be attended (paid of course) where we would meet with representatives from Johnson Controls (make most batteries and automotive systems) and learn how to properly use the test equipment (in store and out of store equip) which was a great help.



I know the the vast majority of parts counter monkeys don't do their job properly, but in most cases that is the fault of management not providing the required knowledge on how to use the tools we have at hand. But then again, some people just cannot be trained or simply refuse to be trained. :banghead: Those are the ones that show up for their daily 3 hour closing shift that are not happy to be there. I loved my job and loved being able to help people out with their car problems and did my best to get them out the door with everything they needed to do the job right the first time.



As for Optima batteries (made by Johnson Controls)... They work great, as long as they never get fully discharged. It was really rare that an Optima arrived in our store dead that could be revived. A standard acid filled battery could be brought back to life from dead sometimes via the use of a jump box and a slow trickle charge for about 2 days, but I never saw an Optima fully recover.
 
Larry,



The method of testing that you described in the first paragraph above is exactly how both customer service reps and Advance and Auto Zone tested my Sport Trac, and both came to the conclusion that a bad diode in the alternator was slowly draining the battery. The Optima battery tested OK. I don't think that it's ever been fully discharged, it's just that if the Trac sits undriven for a couple of days, the battery is drained down low enough to not allow the engine to turn over. But it's responded to a jump right away, and continues to hold a charge as long as I drive the vehicle every day.
 
Larry



I know exactly what the equipment at the parts stores are capable of and I am not disputing the fact that they can check for a faulty diode, however they do not have the capability, and never will have, the ability to determine where a draw is coming from and any employee at any of the parts stores who tells a customer that the draw is due to the alternator diodes should be fired on the spot becasue they have absolutely no proof...and for the record typical manufacturer maximum allowable parasitic draw on the electricial system when it finally goes into sleep mode is .050 milliamps, anything over that and you can have a dead battery potentially overnight.

 
l1tech,



So what do you suggest that I do (besides taking it to a qualified technician)? If it's simply the alternator or battery, I'm quite capable of doing the repair myself; and would much prefer doing so both to save $$$ and for the fun/satisfaction of turning wrenches on my own vehicle.
 
I think everyone is saying you need to remove your battery and remove your alternator and take them to any auto parts shop for bench testing. The key here is to remove them from the vehicle so they are isolated and can be tested completely independently from each other and other systems in the vehicle.
 

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