Time for brakes and got questions

[Mark Stadnicki]

My '10 ST is close to due for brakes, I have 51k miles already. I have Wagner thermo quiets and my old '07 ST freshly rotors turned, painted and ready to go.



I have no shimmy's or shakes and smooth braking right now. My rotors on the truck are pretty smooth, no grooves. Would it be ok if I just swap the pads out? My '07 had the shimmy's when I braked hard. Changed out the pads and added slotted rotors and it still had the shimmys.



So, I fear I'm going to get the shimmy's again if I use the '07 rotors that were turned.



Also, how do you break in your pads? I've heard some just change them and drive normaly. Others go through the whole slow stops to fast stops to "bed" them in? If a bed in was required with the Wagner's wouldn't they of included some instuctions to do it?

 

[EddieS'04]

Just swap the pads. I do it all the time when the rotors are good.

I do use one of these on the rotor surface. Break them in normal.



[Broken External Image]:

 

[Scott Tanner]

+1 on Eddie-04... I have not bought rotors in a while... I surface them with a 24 grit 4-1/2" angle grinder, grease the sliders, and throw the new pads on... It does not pay to turn rotors anymore, IMHO...Since my trac is a 2wd, I use the grinder in such a way that it spins the rotor as I grind it... For 4wd, I don't know what you'd do short of jacking the whole truck up and putting it in gear to spin the rotors.. Break them in with 4 30mph stops, then a couple of 40's, followed by a couple of 55's. That's all I do...

 

[EddieS'04]

If I set the hone on just right. It will spin the rotor for me. Sometimes I have to give it shove.



Actually I have driven off sometimes and not break the pads in. Never had any problems with the way they wore either.



If you get your brakes done at a shop. I have watched. They never break them in. Most of the time they just drive around the lot, to make sure they stop. Then they park it.

 

[blksn8k]

I just disassembled one side on the front of my 07 earlier today to check the amount of pad wear. I am at 56k miles and thought they might be getting close to being worn out. Not even close. I even bought a new set a few weeks ago thinking I might as well change them while the weather is nice. Call me impressed. I did the rear pads a few weeks ago only because they were rattling. Those were not worn much either.

 

[scott degroot]

OEM brakes nowadays are lasting alot longer than they used to. Do yourself a favor and get the Motorcraft pads, not the Ford ones. The Motorcraft pads include any hardware that should be replaced when the brakes are done but is overlooked by 99% of the people out there. Also get your rotors resurfaced regardless of whether or not you feel a shimmy when braking, nothing worse than having to tear the brakes apart in 10,000 miles becasue now they have a shimmy.



Brake break in procedures don't really apply to modern normal performance vehicles when using quality parts during service.

 

[TRACket Paul]

What l1tech said!:supercool::love:

 

[Supercharged SVT]

i have a set of fronts and rear rotors, plus pads from my 2010 adrenalin... I have 300 miles on them interested let me know.

 

[EddieS'04]

get your rotors resurfaced regardless

I disagree. I have only resurfaced or replaced rotors that were warped, scratched, scored or such. Never had any problems and the brakes were just as good. Rotors actually went thru several sets of pads. I didnt always have the hone, in the pic.

Not doing brakes for a living. It is too easy to replace the rotors if an issue develops. Almost a blindfold job.

Second set on my trac front rotors now. With PF pads,excellent brakes.



That is my experiance.....

 

[Mark Stadnicki]

Thanks for all the advice. It looks like I can get the Flex-hone from Sears. I'm going to hone the rotors on the truck and put the new pads on.

 

[Richard L]

Years ago it was acceptable to just put pads on if your rotors were not groved more than the thickness of a playing card and you can probably do that now in many cases.



However, the cost of having the rotors turned is so small it makes no sense to skip this step. You will have better braking and less likely that you will need to replace the pads before your next 50K miles. I think the days of just slapping on a set of pads are over...but many repair manuals still show this as all you need to do for a brake job.



Another thing is that you should never push the caliper pistons back into the calipers without opening the bleed valve. That pushes the old nasty fluid back up into the ABS system, and that can get expensive to repair. I always recommend opening the bleed nut to push the pistons back in and let that old fluid drain out. Once you see what that old fluid looks like, you will understand why you don't want that going back up into the ABS system. Yes, cracking the bleed valve will require you to bleed the brakes, which is an extra step, but in the long run it is well worth it since I think you need to flush the old brake fluid out periodically anyway, so why not do it when you are doing the brake job??



I always recommend that you completely flush the old brake fluid with every brake job or about every 2 years... In my case 40K-50K miles is what I typically get on a set of brake pads and I put that on in about 2-3 years. So even if I am only changing the front pads, I flush all the old fluid out and bleed all 4 wheels.... I go so far as to install rebuilt calipers with every brake job as well...That's not always necessary, but rebuilt calipers are not that expensive, and they often come with a limited Lifetime Warranty, which means I never have to pay for rebuilt calipers again for as long as I own the vehicles.



...Rich

 

[EddieS'04]

It looks like I can get the Flex-hone from Sears. I'm going to hone the rotors on the truck and put the new pads on.

I have had mine about 15yrs.



IMO, and experiance. If your rotors are good. This hone will clean them. You will get just as good braking and life of the pads. I wouldnt say this if I havent done at least a dozen brakes jobs this way. Myself and freinds and family have been satified. None of us to re-do...Disclaimer, it does depend on the condition of your rotors.



As Rich said, open the bleeders. Dont push the old fluid back. Do enough bleeding to flush the system.

 

[zaffo oxnard]

I can't quite grasp why reducing rotor thickness as a routine maintenance step is a good idea. If the surface is not scored or causing issues, then what is the point?



I have read many of the "how to keep from getting a callback" sheets on the Wagner and Raybestos sites, and I get it, but that is for professionals where time is money. As long as you can get your customer to eat the cost, I love the idea. Just replace and resurface everything to reduce the possibility of an issue that comes back to bite you.



For those of us who can do the pad swap, it is a decent and affordable way to preserve the rotor. 2 - 3 sets of pads is not unreasonable before a rotor turn. Easier than that, several sets of pads then replace the rotor. You are doing 90% of the work to replace when you R&R to turn, so so why bother?



If I was managing a fleet or had my own shop, absoloutely, re-surface or replace would be a good rule. Parts are cheaper than time.



For us with a couple of hours to burn, I just don't see it.

The hone is nice, but how do you use it without removing the disk? If you have to remove it to hone it, then yeah, I would just have it turned.



Tony

 

[Richard L]

Tony,

You are correct if all you are looking for is cost savings. But the purpose of brakes is to insure you can stop in the minimum amount of distance.



The problem with not resurfacing is that the new pads are flat and the surface of a worn rotor...not so much. So your first issue is that you are not getting full pad to rotor contact. Even shallow grooves in the rotor will reduce braking power.



Also, most worn rotors have a glossy glazed worn surface which does not allow the new pads to seat properly and that also reduces braking efficiency, and leads to glazed pads and overall poor braking and poor wear and lifespan for the new pads and can overheat the rotors.



Most people are not aware that their braking system is slowly getting worse and stopping distances are gradually increasing ever so slowly. When you just replace the pads without resurfacing the rotors you will never restore the maximum braking power you had when the vehicle was new or when the last proper brake job was done. When the new pads do not properly seat they will slowly continue to have less braking power, and you are more prone to getting noisy squeaky brakes because the pads will chatter on the slightly irregular surface of the rotors.



Eddie's hone will provide a non-directional finish and is better than just slapping on new pads, but it does require removing the rotors to resurface the disc in most cases. And that's why I feel that if you are going to that much trouble to remove the rotors to hone them, why not just have them turned and resurfaced with a non-directional surfacing (Blanchard ground)?? Most good brake shops will turn your rotors and give them a non-directional finish for less than $20 each (some will do it for as little as $8-$10 a disc) If they won't or don't know how to put a non-directional finish on the rotors, then (They don't know what their doing) I would take my rotors somewhere else for turning, or you can use the hone that Eddie mentioned and finish them yourself. That non-directional finish is key to getting the brake pads to seat properly which maximizes your braking power.



In most cases, when you do a proper, complete brake job and replace the pads, turn and properly resurface and finish the rotors and replace old hardware (Springs, clips, etc) you will notice a big improvement in braking power. It restores the brakes to the power they had when the vehicle was new. You will never know how much braking power you have lost if you just keep slapping on new pads on the glazed or grooved rotors.



I demand good brakes and I will not drive a vehicle with crappy brakes. I once returned a rental car (a Mazda) to the Philidelphia airport when I got on the freeway and hit the brakes and I thought the front wheels were going to shake the car apart....and this car only had 13K miles on it !! They thanked me for bringing it to their attention, gave me a new rental car and said they would have their mechanics check out the brakes on the Mazda before it was put out for rental again.



....Rich

 

[EddieS'04]

Rich,

This hone is run in forward and reverse. It takes all the glaze off in a cross hatch patern. Any fine grooves IMO are tribal. The pads will wear into those in 100 miles, and wont affect the life of the pads or braking qaulity. New pads on new rotors will make there own fine grooves in 100 miles anyway. If it did I would have never used it on my performance cars. I do this with the rotors on the car front and backside calipers removed.



Deep grooves or gouging from running metal on metal, no good. Warped rotors, no good. Deep glazing from over heating the rotors no good. Chances are the over heating has caused hairline cracks or will in the future.



I know I sound like a broken record, but. When the rotor inspects good. I stand by this hone.



I have read articles in PM. They said if the rotors inpect good, do nonthing. I will hone them.

 

[Richard L]

Eddie,

I'm sure your hone method works well for you because you know what to look for when examining a brake rotor and you will not just hone a rotor that is has other issues.



My biggest argument against that is most guys here that are asking for advise about how to do a brake job will assume that they can always just run over the rotors with the hone and slap on new pads. They don't realize that their rotors may be bad, the calipers are sticking or they push the fluid back into the ABS system....They may get the new pads installed and the vehicle stops, but they don't have the full braking power and the job may not last very long...and any savings from doing a cheap brake job is lost when they have to redo the brakes again in 10K or 20K miles. To me that is false economy.



I am hard on brakes so I have become very anal about having the best brakes I can on my vehicle. I take extra steps to insure that I do the best possible brake job. Saving money is not as important as having oustanding brakes. I am not going to cut corners to save $20, $40, or even $100 when it comes to brakes.



When I do brakes I buy quality pads, and new hardware like clips, slippers, springs , etc., and I flush the fluid with every brake job...If the fluid looks really bad, I install rebuilt calipers. About every 5-6 years I will replace the brake hoses..All of that is cheap insurance that I have done a good brake job and it will give me the best braking performance I can get and I will not have to do the job again in 10K or 20K miles.



That does not mean your method is wrong or improper. You have the knowledge and experience to know when parts are good, and you can save money and when things are not right. When I inspect my brakes, and see anything even remotely suspicious, I don't take chances, and I don't see any long term savings in not resurfacing the rotors with every brake job and replacing them if/when they get even close to being too thin.



...Rich

 

[EddieS'04]

I have become very anal

:bwahaha:





You said it, I didnt...LOL...just kidding, Richard. I get your point.:supercool:

Sometimes I forget. Some on this board are doing some of this service, for the first time.



Nonthing like experiance with autos. I started tinkering and repairing cars when I was 15.

It seems that nowdays. There are folks in their 40's even. That have never been anywhere but to a repair shop. For some only AAA has always changed a tire. I know some personaly. Some that I know arent even intrested in learning some of the simple things. Im talking about the ones that, dont have the $300 they could have saved, if they took the intrest.



Not a put down to anyone, but. I find it sad that there is so much knowledge being lost. That guys are getting riped off at repair shops, the same as some women do.

 

[Richard L]

Eddie,

I have always been mechanicly inclined and started doing mechanical work on bikes, lawnmowers, and even tinkered with crystal radios when I was about 11-12 years old.

I started tinkering with cars when I was about 14 when my brother and I bought a 1936 Chevy....we planned on restoring it, but ran out of money in less than 6 months..:grin:



I used to read a lot about the projects in all the Hot Rod, Car Craft magazines of the day and that encouraged me to learn more, so I read more and more...That included old Motor's repair manuals, etc and then I would tackle some repairs on my old cars.



I think are experience is probably very similar..:haveabeer:



...Rich