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For those of you that think Unions are bad for the economy...I was a union hand and we made lots of consesions for 5 yrs under new owners so they could stay afloat..we gained nothing during that time..our wages and benifits were way behind the industry..last one for me was a lay off, after 36yrs...not all union hands are hard nosed and hurt the economy...We had several contracts that we should have striked..we chose to keep it afloat and work with them...in the end it cost 46jobs..but those jobs were picked backup by contract workers...next contract I expect they will bust the union..Thats what happens when you try to work with the owners....:angry:
 
Fast Eddie says:
I was a union hand and we made lots of consesions for 5 yrs under new owners so they could stay afloat..we gained nothing during that time..our wages and benifits were way behind the industry..last one for me was a lay off, after 36yrs
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Why didn't you just leave if you could make more elsewhere?



What would your alternatives have been to staying and helping the new owners stay afloat?



Before you call me heartless for asking the questions, note that I have been in the same position, working with paycut after paycut, with the hope for better days just around the corner while I cling to a job that I like working for a company I have been with a long time.



Your story sounds like millions others from the past few years that took pay and benefit cuts all while hoping to keep their employer afloat during what they hoped was a temporary situation, only lose the job anyway...and I am talking about both union and non-union jobs.



There are have been thousands of companies "circling the drain" so to speak the last decade with employees making concessions in a hope they stay afloat.



The phrase "you can't get blood from a stone" comes to mind.



TJR
 
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TJR....It is not so easy to jump off the buss When you are 55yrs old and you are at a place where you have senoirity and decent vacation....and comitments down the road to a wife that has medical problems..Also you believe the promise, that there is a rainbow down the road for your help...only to find out you were dupped.



My pension was an age system, 62...I am 55...If I had been younger, say 40, I would have Looked elsewhere when Mobil sold us to the new owners...But when you are 7 yrs from full pension, It is not easy to jump jobs...



I have enjoyed my 8 months off, I needed a sabatical...I have been working somewhere since age 14...but I will need to find work eventually...
 
Those are all the reasons most in that situation give, Fast Eddie. So, you stayed.



But, since you and other stayed, what would have happened if you and the union stood firm, asked for pay raises, etc?



Do you think the outcome would have been any better, or you would have simply help accellerate the inevitable?



TJR
 
TJR....thats a tough question...I really dont have an answer...I have alot of thoughts about where we should have been tougher from the begining with job garantees, even with lower benifits. We went from being owned by a major corp. to 5 private owners. 3 of the main owners are Morrocan...They really had nothing invested in us as a family that understood the production. We were a chemical plant...sulfuric acid, phos acid and fertilizer...needed products, but not as much as petroleum, autos and other consumer products. Our wages were much lower than many, but on the borderline with the local economy of the Houston area...
 
Fast Eddie -- What you just described is called "Gloden Handcuffs". You have so much time invested, for so much to give up. that your options are slim. I am also an instrument tech, union member for 34 years, that was allowed to get into control system programming. After the first major project, keep in mind I was still hourly, I was called by headhunters for a job in another state. I had to say no because of the "Golden Handcuffs". This happened again after a second major project, same problem. The company I worked for was bought. Our retirement was based on points, age plus years service, and I had my points in. They offered a package for leaving and I took it, plus full retirement.



TJR -- Unions had there place at one time and maybe they still do. Times have changed and the strong union members, I was not one of them, must realized what power, if any, they still have. Unions have done great things for this country in the early years. Please do not belittle them for what they have done for all of us.



Unionmen - When you went to work, did you do so because it was union or did you go to work because you wanted a JOB?? I wanted a job, took it, then union membership happened. International Unions are all about money and politics. Our local had to pay international dues for any non-union members in our workplace. The unions lobbied hard against NAFTA, but it still passed while the Democrats were in office. But yet, the unions still only endorse Democrats.



I see unions now as a necessay evil. The company I left gave packages to all that would take it, hourly and salary. Now there is nothing but non-union contractors working at the site. I am there as a project contractor looking out for the interest of the end users. The work being done must be looked and re-looked over again. Time tables are not met. Quality means something, in time and money. Maybe the time will come back when companies realized that the unions can be their friends.



Terry



 
Republicans, historically, have been union busters. Bush is no exception. Reagan was one of the worst, espicially coming from someone in the Actors Union.





Tom
 
Oil sales is basically NOT a Closed shop. Sellers that are NOT part of the OPEC "UNION" may sell their product at what ever price they want. Most unions are closed shops. That is that you MUST belong to the union or you can't work there. This is my basic disagreement with unions. Additionally the Big three, or what used to be the big three American companies where not allowed to bargain with labor collectively because that would have been deemed a monopoly. The union however has a monopoly and could conspire together, since they were the same union among the three, and target any manufacturer they wanted. They'd strike Ford and allow GM and Chrysler to continue production and sales, thus extorting Ford.



Rocco, I'm not trying to paint a picture depicting big business as benevolent and kindhearted, a Rocco, a monopoly on either side is just not sensible or productive.
 
We've seen a lot of pensions go belly-up lately. Add Social Security to the list, and you'll see a pretty bleak picture for our children. Our children will need to do what our grand parents did. Put away money in a savings account and IRA for when they get old. Otherwise, they may find themselves on the streets begging for food.



The fault is not the governments or unions. It is corporate greed and mismanagement in many cases. In others, such as the auto industry, it is competition from foreign markets. Foreign companies are not burdened with huge pension plans.



Many overseas cultures still believe in the nuclear family, where when the grandparents get older, they live with the children. This is mutually beneficial, since the grandparents take care of the grandkids while the parents are working to support three generations.



In America, the grandparents move to Florida, the parents pay sitters for the kids, and the kids get raised by some stranger that doesn't care if they succeed in life. What's even more amazing is that Americans are buying bigger and bigger homes, which clould easily house their parents and other extended family, but the extra rooms remain empty for some "guest" that may not ever come to visit. :huh:



The lower oil prices are just temporary. The Chinese and folks in India will continue buying cars and the shortage will keep getting worse. Now is not the time to be complacent. Make your plan now for how you will deal with even higher energy prices. Consider this -- it takes less energy to fuel one house than two. Maybe now is the time to ask your parents to move in. :cool:
 
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TSSS says:
TJR...Unions have done great things for this country in the early years. Please do not belittle them for what they have done for all of us.
Click to expand...



Please give instance where I belittled them? I really don't think I have.



Furthermore, I agree that unions have done and continue to do great things for the country. Search my posts, you will see that I said such things. It's funny that you say unions have now become a necessary evil, TSSS, because, frankly, I don't think any "evil" is necessary, and I also think that "times change" and with them needs change. Read into that what you will.



What you see and others saw as belittling, or critical wasn't the intent. I simply asked for those union members that complain about OPEC to have a little introspection. If that is belittling in any way, well that may actually be some discomfort associated with a mirror held too closely to oneself and one's organization of affiliation.



TJR
 
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MikeC,



You don't like the idea of a closed shop? So, you could have a choice. Join the union, pay your dues, and then fight for fair negotiations, or don't join the union and sit back and reep the benefits the union brothers fought for.



How does that sound right?



please explain youyr logic to an open shop. I really want to hear it. That is something I could never understand how so9methong thinks a "closed shop" is bad.



An open shop is underminimg the union. A co-worker worked for a company that had an open shop. When the non-member employee got in trouble, the union had to represent that non-union member. Then the non-union guys would laugh about the union guys paying thier dues, while they got to enjoy the benefits of being union without commiting.



Please tell me your reasoning. I want to hear a different point of view.





Tom
 
I know you already have my opinion, Caymen and you asked for Mike C's, but consider this:



Many (and I am not saying I feel this way, but many do) non-union members feel that a "Closed Shop" is nothing more than a "shake down", and that this day and age, most unions don't provide their members with any real significant benefits above what they would get in a non-union shop...therefore it is the union TAKING and not GIVING, and therefore what's the point. Unions in this sense become labor racketeering organizations, with leverage over employers and employees that must pay "tribute".



So, that's the basic viewpoint shared by many (I am NOT saying it's my viewpoint...I was part of a laborer's union, I know the pros and cons). But it is a common viewpoint, and to understand how others think you should consider that viewpoint and its merits, instead of emotionally dismissing it.



Thus, given that viewpoint and perspective, can you see any validity in it? Have you ever worked in a shop or for a company where the union really wasn't providing that much value to the employees AND to the company, or where the employees would no doubt have enjoy the same benefits and standards, even if the union were absent?



TJR
 
What I am asking is that if he feels a closed shop is wrong, why? It gives those that are not members the rights of members, but don't have to fight for anything.



TJR, you do know the members can vote a union out just as easy as they voted them in.





Tom
 
Caymen says:
You do know the members can vote a union out just as easy as they voted them in.
Click to expand...



"Just as easily?"



Is there ever any backlash against those who call for the removal of the union?



Just wondering.



Also, in a closed shop, only those that are already union members would be voting to dismiss the union....they have already "drank the Kool-Aid" so to speak (sorry if that one sounds belittling, that's not the way it meant...think of a euphemism for "endoctrinated" and replace). A more "objective" vote would need to include candidate employees who have sought positions with the company, been accepted, are capable of the work, and have been given or would like a job there and are not yet union members...and of course, that's not likely.



TJR
 
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Caymen, here is my response. Why should an individual be denied employment because he doesn't want to belong to a union. That's like saying (although illegal) that you can't work for me unless you are Catholic. If you want to work, convert. If I am non union I can't work on most government labor contracts involving plumbing, electrical, construction, etc. Why? A closed shop discriminates against the non union employee. My first job was with Grumman Aircraft Engineering on Long Island New York. Grumman was non union. Sperry, Republic and others were union. They ultimately received LESS compensation than Grumman employees since they were constantly on strike.



If you want a fair playing field then a single union should not be allowed to represent all workers across an industry. that is to say the Electricians union in New York should not represent ALL union electricians in New York. That is a monopoly plain and simple. If a team of non-union electricians want to work on a job at a lower scale, why can't they. That is supply and demand.



I've seen too much union B.S. in union shops.I've seen a shutdown of work because one employee moved an EMPTY box blocking a doorway. The union organization was installing equipment at Grumman. Yup work came to a halt because a NON-UNION person moved the box. The person moving the box was not trying to take away or impact the employment of the movers in any way. I can give you incidents where a circuit breaker blew in a wall panel and needed to be reset. The panel was on the wall and accessible by anyone. The non-union employee reset the breaker so that the lights went back on and the secretarial pool could keep working. They being union refused to work until a UNION electician reset the breaker. They demanded that the breaker be openned and waited two hours in the dark for an electrician to reset the breaker. This is lunacy, no job protection.

 
Does a non US Citican have a right to vote to decide who the next president will be if they have a desire to become a citizan? Does someone who lives in PA, have a right to vote for the next governor of Ohio because he/she is going to become a citizan?



Nope. If you aren't in the union, you have no rights as thayt of a union member to decide the future of the union.



I don't have the right, as a non-employee of a company to decide what benefits package they will offer because I plan on startring there is a few days.



You are either in the union or not. When you are in, you have rights, when your are not in the union, you have no rights. Either I work for some company, or I live somewhere, or I don't.



If you served in a war, you get the rights as a veteran. You didn't serve, you get no rights entitled to a veteran. You don't expect to not be in the military then ask for the same "benefits" they get.



That is pretty much cut and dry, would you agree?





Tom
 
Tom, No!. That analogy is not a very good one. If I do not want to belong to New York, I can go to New Jersey and live. There is not a monopoly of states. Each one allows it's citizens to vote, BUT can not step on the rights of the other citizens, such as the right to work. If I want to independently negotiate with an employer for compensation, why can't I? I'm not stopping you, but you are stopping me. Something is wrong with that. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT a strong advocate of Big Corporations. They have many problems too with they way they do business. For example not fully funding pensions, etc.
 
That is not how not being part of the union works. From what I understand, in an open shop here in Ohio, if you want to remain not part of the union, you get the same pay, work hours, and benefits as a union employee does.



You are not able to negotiate your wage, work hours, or benefits package.



Where is the benefit of remaining non-union in a union shop besides not paying dues?





Tom
 
Why should an individual be denied employment because he doesn't want to belong to a union.
Click to expand...



When I stared my last job, I was not required, by the company to join the union. The union required me, to keep my employment there, to join the union.



Again, you seen a bad side of a union. We do not strike once a week, we don't file greviences, and we don't sit around and be lazy. We have a good union/employer relationship and we work hard to keep it that way.



Both sides of the table win.





Tom
 

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