not really up for interpretation..

[Frank screwyourednecks]

Recently, I have had some discussions with members here, that have a hard time accepting that the United States is not a "Christian" Nation. I know that some want this to be the case...but you cannot exercise your dominion over others in America. Religion has no place in politics, or government. Period.



Some proof:



Separation of church and state refers to the distance in the relationship between organized religion and the nation state. The term is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state," as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists Association in 1802. The original text reads: "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."



This was upheld by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. The phrase "Wall" itself does not appear in the U.S. Constitution. The First Amendment to the Constitution states that "Congress shall make no law, respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."



No matter what you read or take from these examples... it means (and you know it does) that the United States of America is not a Christain Nation. It is a Nation of all religions.. a Nation FREE FROM religion, for the individual.. or a Nation of the religion of the individuals choice.



I like the phrase 'Free exercise" that means (for all the laymen) that you may worship the way you want. Or exercise your feedom FROM religion. The exact reason that Europeans came here to America..to escape RELIGIOUS persecution.



Now..I shudder to think of how this can be twisted, spun, or argued. There are reasons why it is illegal for a religious leader (preacher, deacon, priest, vicar, televangelist) to endorse political candidates from the pulpit. There are reasons that it is illegal to display religious items on public property. There are reasons that you cannot teach creationism in public schools... Because it is a particular sects OPINION of history... and of course the majority of citizens do not believe the same things. Its pretty simple... do not let a certain extreme group of politicians try to confuse you... Church and State will always be apart in America... and America is not a Christian Nation.



Stay thirsty (for facts) my friends.



Frank

 

[Robert Caffyn]

The first religious rebels were the Pilgrims. They could no longer tolerate the teachings of the Church of England. They seperated themselves and were more or less forced from thier homeland. Thier religion? Methodists, I believe(I know I'll be corrected). They wanted to stick as close to the bible as they could and not deviate from it.

I do have to agree with Frank to a point, we are a nation of many religions and we are free to practice the one we choose. The country was founded on Christian beliefs, make no doubt about that. The largest religious group in the US? Wouldn't be surprised if it is the Jewish or Muslim groups. Just like the Chinese and Japanese have taken hold of a large portion of our country, the Muslims believe they can take over the country through assimilation into thier religion. Its really happening right now, so be forewarned. Bob

 

[OLE442]

So frank, good to see you're out there. How's the Sport Trac doing for ya? You know, the Sport Trac...as in mysporttrac.com?? Your's sure is pretty, in a nice color. Any mods to yours? How are the tires wearin for you? Any gas mileage stats for the V-6. Hows it get around in the snow? Just curious..........



'07 ST:driving:

 

[Kerry Matthews]

I'll all for FREEDOM FROM RELIGION! Biggest farce ever inflicted on mankind. I'll have none of it, thank you.

 

[Steve McKellop]

Oh yeah, they engraved In God We Trust on all of our money, Federal Buildings and statues, etc. just for kicks and giggles...........Bull Butter!:angry:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Frank,



Though I generally agree that there is pretty good evidence on both sides of the debate regarding this country's founding as a Christian nation (I'm not going to bias readers of this post with my OPINION), let me say that when you present so-called facts, even go so far as to say that what you present is not really up for interpretation, what you are presenting is a big "Nah-Nah-Nah-Nah-Poo-Poo" argument that most can't take seriously.



You seem to be a smart man, Frank. So smart in fact that sometimes I think you are actually playing a charicature of an elite liberal, and playing it to a T, all for your own amusement.



The problem with this country isn't in those that hold to Christianity, or conservative values, or liberal values, or (insert values or belief here)...no the problem in this country are those that cling to their values in a zealot manner, are at the far spectrum of their believes, and won't listen to, appreciate, or even conceede a point to those that don't see things exactly as they do. Those folks, are, in a word or two are spoiled children, IMHO.



Talk about your differences respectfully, and give those that are willing to talk about what they believe in (in a civil tone and with respect) the same respect they deserve, or keep it to yourself (again, IMHO). I wouldn't censor you...



TJR

 

[H D]

The temptation just isn't that great. Sorry.



Like already mentioned, a quick search of you reveals ZERO posts related to the purpose of this forum. This is all you do? Is it all you have? Do you really even own a Sport Trac?



I'm bored...



And just to be clear, I will no longer respond to your posts not because I don't want to discuss these topics or because I don't want to tell you why you are so clearly wrong. I won't entertain your posts any longer because you show a basic lack of respect and civility to other members. I can discuss topics with people I disagree with all day long and never lose an ounce of respect for the person. You show no respect at all and are generally crass. You do not deserve my response and as such, will receive no more from me.



Simply, I do not respect you. God bless you Frank; I hope you find what you're looking for.

 

[Bill V]

The first religious rebels were the Pilgrims.

Huh??? You're saying that, in all of human history, the Pilgrims were the first case of religious rebellion??? Time for you to revisit your high school history textbooks...

 

[Les]

Huh??? You're saying that, in all of human history, the Pilgrims were the first case of religious rebellion??? Time for you to revisit your high school history textbooks...

He didn't say "in all of human history", the subject of the discussion is this country.

 

[Richard L]

The US government supports a belief in God as a supreme being. That does not conflict with any religious denomination, and does not necessarily imply "Christian". Atheists are by definition non-religious and do not believe in God or a supreme being.



Most of the religious conflict in this country is based on the majority Christians attempting to force their beliefs onto the rest of the populuation. This country was founded and the governement was created by predominantly Christians and that has been the way this country leans since the begining. Most of our laws are based on the 10 commandments which is a religious doctrine. All religions have some form of the Golden Rule even Muslims. All of our Moral laws are related to religious teachings.



Anytime there is a minority, be it race or religious beliefs, there will be conflict.



...Rich

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

hey 07 ST.

The Trac has 50k miles, and is still

In showroom condition. I really like it, and plan to drive it until the wheels fall off. It handles great, is athletic, and the chicks check me out all the time. Very happy with it.



Thanks for asking!



Frank

 

[Frank screwyourednecks]

The united states was not founded on Christian beliefs

 

[Bill V]

He didn't say "in all of human history", the subject of the discussion is this country.

That's not the way he stated it--but even if that is the case, it's still wrong, as the Pilgrims far precede this country...

 

[OLE442]

hey 07 ST.

The Trac has 50k miles, and is still

In showroom condition. I really like it, and plan to drive it until the wheels fall off. It handles great, is athletic, and the chicks check me out all the time. Very happy with it

frank:



Hey great to hear about the Sport Trac. Glad it's getting you the babes.



'07 ST:banana:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

RichardL said:

The US government supports a belief in God as a supreme being. That does not conflict with any religious denomination,...

Buddhism is called by many a non-theistic (no god) religion. Therefore, for a Buddhist, a government that officially declared support of the belief of a supreme being god would seem a little "off putting", to say the least.



But, then again, I suspect a real Buddhist would be able to find harmony with that...





Frank,



You are meant to say: "The United States were not..."; and of course, in that statement, you are furthering your opinion, not fact. I say that because the very basis of the statement is open to interpretation, and framing by different individuals. Some individual states, for example, were formed by religious leaders. Or, are we talking about the founding fathers and their beliefs, which were diverse one from the other? It all is pretty subjective.



TJR

 

[Andy Chase]

Just to throw it out there...Why is Christmas a federal holiday then??? Shouldn't this be just another day if they are seperate? Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to have Chirstmas Day off every year (and I will always take vacation for Christmas Eve as my parents are divorced and now that I'm married, if I work the 24th, I miss seeing half my family)

 

[Andy Chase]

also... "One Nation under God..."

 

[Bill V]

Andy C, I, on the other hand, wish it wasn't. I hate that the vast majority of my employer's paid holidays are crammed between November 22 and January 21--right in the most frigid portion of winter. I'd much rather have some of these days off in a season when things can be done comfortably outdoors.



So if pushing for the full separation of church and state helps that happen--well, I'm indifferent on the church-and-state argument, but it's a means to an end... :supercool:

 

[Richard L]

Frank, I never said that America was founded on Christian beliefs. I said it was founded on the belief in God. Many of the founding fathers and political leaders since then, and our population is predominately Christian, so many of our laws and moral issues are based on religious doctrine and that is primarily from a Christian view point.



Andy,

Christmas is a Federal Holiday because most Americans are Christians. If enough people want it to be a holiday, it can happen....Kind of like Martin Luther King day is now a Federal Holiday, but many businesses do not recognize it as a holiday. The government may as well declare it a holiday because people will take off on Dec 25th. That's why many businesses honor Christmas as a holiday because most people will take off that day anyway, and many businesses cannot operate with so many people being out that day.



Odd that the government can declare Christmas as a holiday, but cannot display any Christmas religious symbols like Nativity scenes on government property??



I have worked at places that have a holiday on Good Friday, but do not have a holiday on Memorial Day?



TJR,

Yes, Buddist, and a few other religions that do not believe in a supreme being (God), but as you pointed out, they do not object to others religious beliefs because the seek serenity and enlightenment from within. Some people think that God only exists within our own minds and God is really our Conscience...That's what separates us from all other creatures on earth and accounts for our ability to tell right from wrong, and that Religion is a method of training our conscience?



...Rich

 

[Gavin Allan]

Some people think that God only exists within our own minds and God is really our Conscience...That's what separates us from all other creatures on earth and accounts for our ability to tell right from wrong, and that Religion is a method of training our conscience?

I believe this to be true, but there are also two other parts of God besides the "Holy Spirit that dwells within us".