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SST - Have to disagree with you regarding A-Rod. He is the youngest player to reach the

500 HR mark and should easily beat Bonds all-time HR record if he continues to play at his current pace.
 
i say innocent until proven guilty. If steroids mean that records are tainted then you have to erase all records set in any sport since the late 70's just to be safe. My best friends dad used to be an o lineman for the raiders in the eighties and he said in every locker room he had been in they had oral steroids lying around in candy dishes. And seeings as they didnt start testing until the mid to late 90's you can elminate all records set by montana, rice, barry sanders, marino, elway.... and thats only football....



i watch sports for the entertainment factor, and I love it and always will....
 
the number should read 755*
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Are you referring to Aaron's former record? If so, I hadn't heard any recent allegations of his record being tainted.



If you're talking about Bonds--then you meant "756*", his current level. 755 is Aaron's level.
 
I see Caymen is being his sarcastic self again.



Clearly when you have a sport, where people work legitimately hard to set and break records, there is a vested interest in keeping everything on a level playing field. That's what rules and regulations are for. Allow anyone to break them, knowingly, and let their records and stats stand, and you might was well stop keeping records and stats...and scores.



If you do that, then you really only have "sports entertainment", ala the professional wrestling, etc where it is all a "production". Yes, it might come to that, but gawd, I hope not.



TJR
 
Caymen,

I would just pose this question apon you, would Pink Floyd not have been able to produce this record had they been sober? Do we know? NO and now one will ever second guess it.



I guess i have a different opinion since i have never smoked, did drugs or drank. I don't honestly know why, but never wanted to temp it either. So when drugs come into play, i always have to question whether they had an affect.



i have heard of many sports stars that state that back in the day coffee/caffeine were always in the clubhouse and taken during the games. Guess i would fall under this for my job since lattes and cappuchinos are my norm. So am i hypocritical to say that these guys cheated?



If something is illegal for daily use, isnt that what makes it wrong? What message are we using here for children? And to say that he has never proven to take steriods is a joke since he was the guinnea pig for steriod testers that would go under the radar if tested. I guess time will tell if he truly has taken anything. His body will react just like Lyle Alzado from the Raiders.
 
TJR--exactly. The issue then becomes, when do new developments that weren't available to former record holders qualify as an unlevel playing field? For example, in the history of baseball, "Tommy John" elbow surgery is relatively new. Now, if someone who has this procedure done breaks a record, should it count? After all, the new surgery enhanced his performance in a way previously not available. The same argument can be made for nutritional supplements, sports drinks, prosthetics, advanced computerized training equipment, etc. It will likely need to be determined in the future for things like bionic eyes, embedded electronic communication, and many more things that haven't even been imagined yet.
 
Bill V,

great points, but "supplements" are a form of cheating in my eyes. if you dont eat it because its "food" then i dont think you should be taking it. If your body is lacking a vitamin and could cause you to die, then take the supplement, but if its for pure gain, then its still cheating.



Sports should just hand out a packet to all players and say...here...this is the only supplements you can take...if you take them, great, but if not then fine.
 
I guess i have a different opinion since i have never smoked, did drugs or drank. I don't honestly know why, but never wanted to temp it either. So when drugs come into play, i always have to question whether they had an affect.
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I never did drugs, though I enjoy a cold beer once in a while, or a nice fresh fruity foo foo drink.



If you have ever seen "The Wall" from Pink Floyd, there is not wany anyone could have imagined it sober.



TJR, not being sarcastic in my posts.





Tom
 
Caymen said:
TJR, not being sarcastic in my posts.
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Oh! Well here is why I assumed you were...



Definition of sarcasm:
sarcasm

1. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.



2. A form of irony in which apparent praise conceals another, scornful meaning.
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Now, you originally posted:
The way I look at it is if the ball player wants to have an unfair advantage by using steroids, let him do it. One ball player having an advantage over another because of sterioids is the way life is.



Every day, companies have unfair advantages over others with help from their home countries and we deem that just great. Why should sports be any different. Let the game destroy itself like it is doing to us.
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Clearly you are using apparent praise and irony to mask your scornful contempt, in this case, contempt towards companies, etc.



Furthermore, given that you have time and time again showed your contempt for companies that don't play by the rules, why, oh why, if not for sarcasm, would you submit that sports players shouldn't have to abide by the rules? If you have contempt for one group that doesn't play by the rules, than it would be only with seeminbg irony and sarcasm that you would okay such rule breaking by others.



Or, asked another way, let's say you had ONE and ONLY ONE "wish" that you could have come true, Tom. But the catch is that you could wish for only one of the two following things:



a. That sports players wouldn't have to play by the rules as you mention, since no one else seems to have to.



or



b. Everyone, in all walks of life, in all things have a fair set of rules to work, live and play by and all would perform within those rules.



Take your pick Tom...which is it. Which do you pick. Given your contempt for those that don't play by the rules (cops, companies, employers, etc), the choice should be straightforward.



TJR
 
Along the same lines, I think it is silly to have all these rules in NASCAR. Why not just let folks enter with the car they think will go the fastest? Fastest around the track wins. Quickest down the quarter mile wins.



restrictor plates and other stupid regulations have no place in competition.



Same with pro sports: If they want to inject steroids, smoke crack, drink goats milk, etc. LET THEM Team/person who wins is the winner.



As long as people keep inventing rules and regulations, others will keep inventing ways around them.
 
Not to add more fuel to the fire but you simply cannot compare records from differing eras of the sport.



715 home runs by Ruth: dead ball era with parks that were bigger, pitching that was probably inferior, athletes (if you can call them that) who drank & smoked before during and after games,were overweight and out of shape, not very advanced sports medicine.



755 by Aaron: 50 years later, balls are more standardized, parks are much smaller, some are domed, athletes are in better shape and probably not juicing it yet. Athletes still are no where near as health conscious as they are now but are getting smarter about their health.



756+ by Barry Bonds: juiced balls and players, smaller ball parks, better all around athletes, personal trainers & "supplements", better sports medicine and generally healthier players.



In the end, A-rod will likely pass Bonds and much quicker than Bonds did it. That will a much better comparison than 30-80 year old records from different eras.



The one that is still most impressive and likely to not be broken for a long time is 56 games. No amount of steroids, weightlifting, healthy living, personal trainers, domed parks, short fences can make up for the gift of seeing the ball like DiMaggio could.



Oh, and I don't really care that he broke it or it will be broken again in about 7 years.

 
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Gavin:
Same with pro sports: If they want to inject steroids, smoke crack, drink goats milk, etc. LET THEM Team/person who wins is the winner. As long as people keep inventing rules and regulations, others will keep inventing ways around them.
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Whhaaaattt? Soooo..... remove the rules? end all restrictions on sports because eventually people will get around them and it's all for not anyways? That is so far off the marker I don't really know how to respond. But to save my fingers... there must always be rules. sure some will be broken. but when they are obviously broken those breaking the rules SHOULD not be glorified!
 
I remember an old episode of SNL when Phil Hartman came out dressed like a Russian weightlifter with foam rubber muscles in the "All-Drug Olympics". He goes to lift the barbell and his (fake) arms rip out of his shoulders, blood squirting everywhere. The announcer says "Ooohh boy, I bet that hurts."
 
DanG '01, if it were as you say, then where do you draw the line? For example, if a player doesn't have a vitamin deficiency or other medical reason, should they be barred from taking Flintstones chewables? What about aspirin--do you allow it if you're taking it for blood pressure/coronary health reasons, but not if you're taking it to relieve pain?



Let's face it--anything these people are taking is for "gain" of some sort. Be it to have better performance, faster healing, less pain, treatment of a medical condition, or simply to remain alive. If you're going to outlaw consuming/injecting/inhaling anything that the athletes "gain" from in some way, your going to put an end to sports, as without the air, water, and food, all the athletes will be dead.



Generally, in most sports these days, the general rules regarding what parties can put into their bodies have been governed by answering the question of, "Can other athletes put this same substance into their body to gain the same advantage, without needing to suffer negative effects (health or other) as a result?" If the answer is "yes", then in general, it's legal. If the answer is "no", then it's outlawed. In general, it seems to me to work well.
 
Homerun King - look at HRs/AB - this gets rid of BB (actual and intentional) need make sure there are enough lifetime ABs (5000 or so which would equate to about 10 years).



See link way below for #'s then get get Bonds' numbers from link just below & see the comps - he is at 0.07734806629834254143646408839779 for HRs/AB



http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp.cgi?I=bondsba01:Barry+Bonds&st=career





This stat is similar to HRs every XX AB -



Bonds - 12.928571428571428571428571428571

Aaron - 16.376158940397350993377483443709

Ruth - 11.761904761904761904761904761905

Ted Williams - 14.790786948176583493282149712092



Plus look at what Ruth did versus his contemporaries. He used to out HR entire teams over a season.



OK, put an * next to Ruth, he was hopped up on hot dogs & beer, in addition various STDs.



As this is about HRs only I will not get started on any of the other SABRmetrics that are available.



JT#14



p.s. Finally a conversation I can add true value to as opposed to shocks, cupping, elbows, etc......
 

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