Is Toyota's recall that different from Ford's?

[Richard L]

I find it rather surprising that so many of the members here are laughing and joking about Toyotas recent sticking gas pedals and brake problems. And the media are like sharks in a feeding frenzy.



Toyota is no different than any other Japanese, Korean, American or European auto manufacturer. They all strive to make safe, quality vehicles at a reasonable price, but occasionally something goes wrong. In most cases the executives at these companies will down play the significance of these defects for several reasons:

1. They may not have sufficient evidence that there is a true defect or cannot duplicate the problem.

2. They realize there is a defect, but have not determined the exact cause.

3. If they have found the defect, they are looking for the most practical and economical solution.



The fact that Toyota stopped production and sales of the affected vehicles surely indicates that they were serious about finding and correcting this problem, and goes far beyond anything that any other Auto manufacturer has ever done in the past.



We should not be so snobbish about Ford recent success because their vehicles have been the subject of some very serious recalls in the past where they denied any defects existied.



Lets go back about 10 years ago when Explorers were rolling over all too frequently. Ford blamed it on Firestone tires. It is common for all auto manufacturers to blame a supplier for their engineering problems.



Firestone blamed it on Ford since Firestone was making the tires to meet Fords design specifications for the Explorer, and that Fords tire pressure specs were too low for the size and weight of the Explorer and that was causing the tire failures.



While Ford successfully pushed most of the blame over to Firestone, Ford continued to lose a number of lawsuits for wrongful death and negligence related to the Explorers design causing the roll overs. At the height of this Ford vs Firestone controversy, Ford recalled and replaced Firestone tires on all Explorer vehicles back to 1996. That made Ford look like the good guy and convinced more people that Firestone was the bad guy. Months later, after Ford convinced the world that Firestone was to blame for the Explorer roll over issues, they quietly issued new tire-pressure specification stickers to owners of Explorers that increased the recommended tire pressures, just as Firestone had recommended !! Hmmmm?



Then there is also the Ford Aerostar vans that would self ignite due to problems in the alternator wiringa number of people died before that problem was found and corrected, again, very quietly.



And who over 50 can remember the IED Pintos (Improvised Explosive Device) which used the hatch-backs trunk floor as the top of the gas tank. Hit a Pinto in the rear, the floor seam splits open spilling the fuel into the passenger compartment and the Pinto instantly becomes an inferno. A lot of people died because of that stupid design, but Ford denied any design problems



Dont get me wrong, I am not bashing Ford for their recent success and profit. I think Is great that they got the right leadership in their company to realize that they had to get out of the hole that all US auto makers were digging themselves into. And they were smart enough to start doing that 5 years before Chrysler and GM did.



I just think there is an unfair feeding frenzy going on now with Toyota mostly because Toyota is one of the top selling brands in the world and it is not and American owned company. If Ford had a similar issue with some of its vehicles like it did in the past, they would have never shut down production or even acknowledged that they had a problem and just blame it on one of their supplierslike they did with Firestone?



Rich

 

[Tom Schindler]

Lets go back about 10 years ago when Explorers were rolling over all too frequently. Ford blamed it on Firestone tires. It is common for all auto manufacturers to blame a supplier for their engineering problems.



Firestone blamed it on Ford since Firestone was making the tires to meet Fords design specifications for the Explorer, and that Fords tire pressure specs were too low for the size and weight of the Explorer and that was causing the tire failures.

The issue was about tread separation happening to the Firestone tire causing the vehicle to roll over.



Ford suggested what pressures they would like to run to improve the ride. Firestone said that there would be no problems with that pressure. Because of that, the tire had the tread separate from the core.



Firestone agreed with Fords recommendation on tire pressure. Ford did not do it without Firestone's concurrence.



Regardless what we can think about this situation, the end is this. If I ask the engineer if we can do something this way and he says yes, the fault is not mine. If it is wrong, and even though I am wrong, the engineer said it was OK, the engineer is at fault.



Of course, I will be called names and stupid, etc, but I really don't care.



Have at it!





Tom

 

[Kevin Lang]

What is this post about? A let's-meet-halfway, apologetic, kum-ba-yah preaching to make Ford lovers feel sorry for Toyota and stop our ragging? Where were the kum-ba-yah'ers when Ford was being mocked for the past 30 years? Where?



No where, that's where. Your post shows the work of the 30 years of Ford hate, notably Nader's bogus spew about the evils of the Pinto, and how it was so vile that it was almost the devil himself on wheels, and Ford was guilty by association.



Firestone had the option to walk away from the deal with Ford, and as recent posts here have shown, Firestone had the moral obligation to walk away if Ford would not fix what Firestone knew (as they admit) was a design flaw. Firestone went along with it, as they admitted--as you admitted--and in such they condemned themselves.



This tripe about Ford and other companies having evil schemes devoted to making unsafe products for short-term profit is only believed by the gullible who are chuggin' the kool-aid. What company would sabotage itself? Next you'll be telling me that bankers made loans to people who could not foreseeable repay them out of their own free will and malicious nature, throwing their cash and reputation down the drain, rather than by being forced to by legislation.



The middle ground is despicable, and I think yous knows this.



It's a Ford site, why can't we rag on Toyota unceremoniously? :angry:

 

[gary s]

oh great !!



the 2 experts have the answers. :yawn:

 

[Tom Schindler]

It's a Ford site, why can't we rag on Toyota unceremoniously?:angry:

We can, but we may upset a person or two. Only they have the right to upset everyone. We do not have the right to upset them!



T O Y O T A S U C K S !!!!!!!





Tom

 

[TomT]

Can't we get over the Toyota bashing and go back to bashing Chevys? I mean that's why I joined this site!

:btddhorse:

 

[Bud Williams]

Can't we get over the Toyota bashing and go back to bashing Chevys? I mean that's why I joined this site!

What about Dodge?



:bwahaha:

 

[Richard L]

Caymen,

No name calling here. We old-timers all know the tale of the Ford vs Firstone fiasco. Ford claimed that the Firestone tread separation was caused by defective tires. But Firestone claimed it was Ford who wanted to run the tires at lower than recommended tire pressures which was causeing the tread separation. I excepted Ford's version until almost a year later when I got new tire inflation stickers from Ford....Hmmm, I wonder why Ford would send out these stickers to increase the tire pressure if the problem with tread separation was not due to the previously recommended lower tire pressures? Ford has already been sued sucessfully several times regarding deaths due to the Explorer roll overs, but I am not aware of anyone sucessfully sueing Firestone??? Not to say that Firestone was not sued for injuries or deaths related to tread separation on Explorers.



KL,

Nobody is bashing Ford for problems they had over the past 30 years. Most of Ford's problems have been Quality issues not Safety issues. All vehicles hava had some quality issues and customer satisfaction is based on how the Dealer/manufacturer handles the problem...acting like the problem does not exist is not the way to win over customers



The first first 4-5 cars I ever owned were Ford's (1950, 1954, 1946, 1959) and I owned two Sport Trac's, a 2001 and a 2003 and I was very happy with all of them. I love cars but I am not a Ford lover, nor a Chevy lover, or a lover of any particular band name or country of manufacture. I have owned vehicles from all three US auto makers, as well as a Honda and a Toyota, and several European made cars. The only lemon I ever owned was a Chevy Vega!



Ralph Nader killed the Corvair not the Pinto. He wrote 2 books called "Hit from both sides" and "Unsafe at any speed" where he criticized a lot of vehicles for unsafe designs, and especially Corvair's rear swing axle (which many vehicles still use today, including most 4WD vehicles). Both of those books were published before the Pinto was introduced in 1971.



The rest of your "let's-meet-halfway, apologetic, kum-ba-yah preaching " crap or whatever you are talking about makes no sense so I will not comment on that.



My point is that Toyota's problems today may easily be Ford's problem tomorrow. The notion that Ford is really any different than Toyota or Honda, or any other car company is so ignorant. Ford might already have a serious safety issue brewing that has not been made public yet because they may be the only ones who know about the issue, or may be sluffing it off and hoping it will just go away. That's probably what Toyota did but evenually it became a major problem that could not be ignored anymore.



...Rich

 

[Les]

There was a settlement on the tires, but I don't know who paid. I had an Expedition at the time and I received notification that if I had replaced the tires to send a copy of the bill. I did, and received a full reinbursement. I replaced them due to wear, not as a safety issue.

 

[Kevin Lang]

RL, what was the point of your post? To make us realize that Ford has recall issues just like Toyota, to convince all us Ford zealots that Ford is "human" and makes mistakes, just like Toyota and any other car company, right?



Then, I assume that your post wants us to, armed with that knowledge, stop spreading our Toyota hate.



Which would get the Ford lovers to a common ground with the Toyota crowd(or at least stop ragging on em)--which would be the kum-ba-yah that I mentioned.



If that was not your point, then what was?



Regardless, Toyota will still make me do this. :throwup:

Though Chevy and Dodge do too, as they've done me wrong even before the buyout that I don't see eye to eye with.

 

[Richard L]

KL,

what was the point of your post?

Obviously, just to aggravate you, without even knowing in advance.



The real reason I posted was to show that the media is blowing the whole Toyota recall issue out of proportion, and everybody is now on a Toyota bashing binge. Now Congress is involved wanting to know the usual who knew what, and when did they know it. I wonder what the reaction would be if it was Ford who had the sticking gas pedal, or the slow brakes on some of their vehicles? It's only happening because Toyota is one of the top selling brands in the USA if not the world, and they have strong reputation for building safe, quality cars. People just seem to want to kick the big guy when get knocked down off of the perch we set them on!



While the media went after the Ford vs Firestone fiasco, they did not do so with the same venom as they are now doing to Toyota. Why didn't Congress call Ford and Firestone to testify as to who knew what and when did they know it? Ford paid to have the Firestone tires removed from their Vehicles and that made it look like Firestone was the bad guy. Ford was the one ultimately responsible for the Explorer roll overs but they were able to divert the blame to Firestone.



Toyota is blaming their sticking gas pedals on the vendor who supplies the pedal units, when the suplier claims there is nothing wrong with the pedals...Ultimately Toyota is still the responsible party. At least they stepped up to the plate and stopped the sale and production of all affected vehicles....Something Ford, GM, or Chrysler would likely never do.



...Rich

 

[Benjamin Feinstein]

Dont forget the cruise control problem that could cause the vehicle to catch on fire. I dont like Toyotas all that much either but although Ford has improved it is still far from perfect. I just feel for all the Toyota owners that have to continue to drive a potentialy unsafe vehile untill they can get it fixed.

 

[TomT]

Besides the ST that I drive my wife drives a 06 RAV 4, both of which I couldn't be happier with. Luckily my RAV was completely built in Japan and is not being recalled. As I said before, there is no perfect vehicle. It's an industry wide problem. Perhaps because they all rely to much on electronics?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

RichardL,



I suggest giving it up.



I've spent quite a bit of time on this website encouraging people to see beyond their biases, and to rethink things, and to look at things from a different POV. Most people that can think rationally, and unemotionally can do that. Some folks here seem that they never will be able to.



TJR

 

[Kevin Lang]

Ford paid to have the Firestone tires removed from their Vehicles and that made it look like Firestone was the bad guy.

Sounds like you believe Firestone was innocent and Ford was the bad guy, so now you're spewing your own Anti-Ford venom...again on a Ford forum.



You stated that Firestone knew that Ford demanded unsafe pressures from their tires. Even if this is true, that means that Firestone was complicit in killing consumers, making them at least as guilty as Ford, again, were your scenario where Ford plays an evil profit-mongering corporation true.



Not even considering Firestone's self-admission of guilt, you just go on to rag on Ford. What kind of axe are you trying to grind with the Blue Oval? Are you coming out of the closet with Toyota love or something? I am confused as to your motives, Still, on this post.



So you want us all to stop ragging on Toyota, and shed a tear for 'em because they got some bad press? :cry: Sounds a lot like trying to get Ford zealots to come to middle ground with Toyota, and I ain't singing any kum-ba-yah. Ford and Toyota = Oil and Water. :btddhorse:



...and bad press for Toyota? Hah. Ford is still living in infamy for events that occurred decades ago. In a year, will anyone even remember this Toyota snafu? I do wonder.

 

[shawn stonbraker 2]

KL, there has been "Ford Bashing", "GM Bashing", etc. on here since I joined the site. You have to get some thicker skin. I'm starting to agree with some on here that the continual posts about Toyota's problems is getting old. This is a family site. We will not all get along all the time, just like any other family. Do I feel sympathy for Toyota? Nope. It was bound to happen. No car company is faultless. Just because this is a "Ford" site, (which in all actuality it isn't)(Ford doesn't own it) doesn't mean that you won't hear some on here bashing them. Some do it to get under your skin. Thus the reason you need to have some thick skin. To each their own. I owned a Toyota Pick-up before the ST. I loved it. I like the ST more. Never had major problems with either of them. (knock on wood) Let's just quit beating this horse until we see where it goes.:haveabeer:

 

[Tom Schindler]

Ford claimed that the Firestone tread separation was caused by defective tires. But Firestone claimed it was Ford who wanted to run the tires at lower than recommended tire pressures which was causeing the tread separation. I excepted Ford's version until almost a year later when I got new tire inflation stickers from Ford....Hmmm, I wonder why Ford would send out these stickers to increase the tire pressure if the problem with tread separation was not due to the previously recommended lower tire pressures? Ford has already been sued sucessfully several times regarding deaths due to the Explorer roll overs, but I am not aware of anyone sucessfully sueing Firestone??? Not to say that Firestone was not sued for injuries or deaths related to tread separation on Explorers.

Yes, Ford wanted to run the tires at a lower pressure than were recommended. You are 100% correct.



It was Firestone that said it was OK to do so. A well built tire SHOULD NOT have the tread separate from the core. Was the lower pressures to blame? Hell yes, but again, Firestone said it would be OK to do so.



Again, Firestone, the ones that designed, built, and sold the tires said it was OK.



The pressure was increased because the recommend pressure, the one Firestone said was OK, was partly to blame for the problems.



Firestone gave the OK to have them at what Ford wanted. Firestone COULD have said NO and it would be on Fords lap, BUT firestone said it was OK to run at those pressures.



Get the hint?





Tom

 

[Bud Williams]

It's ironic that Bill Ford's parents were Ford/Firestone...

Wonder if there was any fights amongst them...



Biography

Firestone was born in his family's farm house in the small town of Columbiana, Ohio, the second of three children, to Benjamin Firestone, a farmer, and A. After graduating from Columbiana High School, Firestone worked for the Columbus Buggy Company in Columbus, Ohio before starting his own company in 1890, making rubber tires for carriages. Firestone, Leonard Firestone, Raymond Firestone and Elizabeth Firestone. The Ford-Firestone corporate marriage was later cemented when Henry's grandson William Clay Ford wed Martha Firestone, granddaughter of Harvey, who then became parents of current Ford Motor Company Chairman, William Clay Ford, Jr.

 

[Tom Schindler]

It's ironic that Bill Ford's parents were Ford/Firestone...

Wonder if there was any fights amongst them...

Harvey Firestone and Henry Ford were great friends.



I am sure you know the Firestone of today is not Firestone. Firestone of today is owned by a Japanese Tire Company called Bridgestone.





Tom

 

[Richard L]

KL,

Sounds like you believe Firestone was innocent and Ford was the bad guy, so now you're spewing your own Anti-Ford venom

Not true! I think both Ford and Firestone are to blame. However Ford was very sucessfull in deflecting nearly all the blame onto Firestone.



I do feel that Firestone had a problem with the tires because tires should not come apart because of a slightly lower tire pressure, but Ford ignored Firestone's recommendation to run a higher tire pressure.



But it does not matter who is at fault or what brand of vehicle you prefer. The point was to show that it is the anatomy of a safety recall when the auto manufacturer first ignores the problem, then claims there is nothing wrong, to blaming a supplier, until they eventually have a recall. The point is that all auto companies do the same thing and this Toyota recall is not different than any other recalls be if from Ford, Firestone, GM, Chrysler, Honda, etc



Hell, some auto companies have had recalls for safety related problems, and fixed cars and continued to claim that there was nothing wrong with them, or that the actual number of defective cars was so small that the odds of you getting a defective vehicle were so small, etc. Again, they faulsly try to minimize the problem, or put some kind of spin on the situation as to make them look like the good guys and our safety is in their best interest.



They all want to make safer, better quality cars, until there is a problem, and then it's no longer a safety issue, it's a money issue !!



TJR,

Yes, I believe you are right about trying to convince people to think outside of the box and look at things from a different perspective rather than always seeing just what's inside the 4 coners of their prejudicial heads... :btddhorse:



...Rich