Goodby FORD

[Thomas Rogers]

Reread my post (which I updated), Bill-E...I know very much of what I write, because I am talking about my experiences.



I suspect and logic would dictate that steering shudder, tire cupping and poor OEM shocks affect ALL STs but many people either don't notice or tend to tolerate these little issues.



As for these being engineering issues, not quality...that's just absurd. Quality STARTS with the design. As an engineer myself I can assure you that is the case. No amount of "quality after the fact" can raise the quality of poorly designed product. The fact that a single component is of high quality is without merit if the system as a whole fails. And, please relax the "those that post on this site need to know what they talk about" because your opinion on what does and doesn't constitute quality is just that, an opinion, and yours is as equally valid as mine and neither should be stiffled.



TJR

 

[Bill Ellis]

Being an engineer, you of all people should understand that robust design and quality of the produced product are different attributes. A product that is produced to meet all design specifications is a quality product. Yet, it might be unsuitable for its advertised use.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

I respect what you are saying, Bill-E, and understand it, but you don't recognize what I am saying.



I agree that a correctly engineered product can meet all specifications and may arguably be good quality in that it met said specification, but IF that same product is unsuitable for its advertised use THEN it's a high quality piece of crap...no need to mince words.



As an engineer I am able to take the blame and won't stand behind some spec and say "I did my part", or "My part performed to spec!" I currently work for a company that is putting out some high-quality crap, and everyone can say they are doing their part the right way, but our business is going down the tubes and we are ALL to blame.



I think its the same way at Ford sometimes.



So, yes, I agree that robust design doesn't equate to good quality. But let's consider the opposite...often times POOR design DOES MEAN poor quality, and poor reliability. Just watch Modern Marvels and its "Worst Engineering Disasters" episode to see that. Many of the things mentioned on that show were "within spec", but people died nonetheless. High quality crap!



TJR

 

[Bill Ellis]

The disconnect here is that you and most people, including myself, use the term Quality in a subjective manner. One in which we bundle design, reliability, suitability, styling and other product characteristics. However, when we talk about quality on a site such as this, it is important that we do not treat the term as we so often do, but use the term in the same sense that it is used by a manufacturing organization. If ya don't like the styling, then say that. Don't confuse it with quality. If ya don't like the designed ride, say so; don't confuse it with quality. Part of coming here is to get more educated in regards to our Tracs and vehicles in general. When people can write their thoughts in such a manner that there is no confusion on the part of the readers and that all readers understand the writer in the same manner, then we've accomplished something good here.

 

[Tom Schindler]

- An underpowered power steering pump that makes the steering shudder.

Mine will do it SLIGHTLY now...AFTER I installed my UD Pulley. Before then, never one ounce of shutter from my PS system.

- Poor alignment, cheap OEM tires, and/or engineering that all equate tires that cup and wear poorly and need rotation way too frequently

My alignment was fine. Tires sucked, but they said "Goodyear" on the side. I rotate my tires once a year. That is when I change from the summer tires to winter tires.

- An alternator that whines and wheezes at cold temperatures

Not mine!

- OEM shocks that provide a car-like ride, assuming that car is driven by Ted Kennedy (they simply aren't safe under many road conditions)

Make the OE shocks stiffer and people will complain about a ride that is too stiff. You can't please everybody.



Problems are not widespread. Ever nitice you don't hear any complaints about the Toyota Tacoma here? I guess that means the Tacoma is a better vehicle.





Tom



...oh wait. This is a Ford Explrer Sport Trac website and not a Toyota Tacoma website.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

I agree, Bill-E there is (was) a disconnect. But I think any definition of quality that implies that said quality is lacking if the product doesn't perform as expected or advertised is a valid definition. It may not be the best definition for all purposes, but it is valid and has merit. For example, a stainless steel steak knife can be of the utmost quality, but if someone is advertising it as a "screwdriver", then it's not a quality product. Sure, quality can be subjective. Design flaws that result in poor quality aren’t subjective in my mind. I still think the poor tire wear and the under-powered power steering pump are rooted in poor design that affects overall quality…or at least my perception of that quality, to your point.



Caymen, you admit the tires sucked...why did they suck? Were they poor quality?



TJR

 

[Gavin Allan]

Quality is defined as the ability to meet the customer's expectations.





After driving my Dad's Ridgeline all weekend and pulling a 5000 pound trailer, my expectations for my vehicle have changed quite a bit.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Oh, how so Gavin, can you explain? I mean how have your expectations changed?



TJR

 

[Dallas Starr]

Having bad tires isnt fords issue its goodyears. As for your problems I have no experienced any of them. Even my Goodyears were adaquate until it was time to replace as a result of wear. Other than that just normal maintenance and I am at 192,000 kms so far.



I know I am not driving a 60,000 truck therfore I know not to expect the quality you get from a 60,000 truck. I guess my expectations were a little more accurate than some. Min you for what I paid for my trac it has met or exceeded my expectations.



I guess thats why I am such a pro-sport trac guy. Even if I was to buy a new vehicle right now with say about a 40,000 budget (canadian). I would still go straight to the ford dealer and get the new ST 4x4 with a v8 (mind you I am still going to wait until the 08's, you have to give every dealer at least 1 year to work out the kinks in new models... its only fair)



I am happy to see that you seem to be pro-sport trac most of the time as well TJR, I just think that maybe you might be one of the unfortunate ones to have a few small problems with it, so far doesnt seem to be anythng major... in my opinion. (Mind you I have already replaced my shocks and tires..)

 

[Gavin Allan]

The Ridgeline is built really tight and solid-feeling. I don't hear any rattles or creaking. It feels much heavier than the Trac. It cruises with ease on the highway, and the suspension is truck-like, but rides very good.



The engine is smooth and powerful, and the transmission shift points seem well-matched to the engine. The engine sounds more refined than the tinny sportTrac sound.



The Ridgeline's air conditioner was very powerful and much quieter than the Fords.



I'm not crazy about the styling inside or out, but both are very functional with several nice features. The swing-out tailgate is really handy, and the rear bed storage is tight, secure, and water-proof. I love the four in-bed lights that help at night. There is gobs of interior storage in front and in the back seat. Dad has some pull-out organizer trays that fit under the rear seats that hold stuff securely, but are very handy to access. There are no large gaps in interior panels, and you don't see a strip of exterior paint around the door frames from the inside. There is very little wind noise compared to the Trac.



Towing the trailer was no problem. I felt it, but it pulled real easy. There was a little bit of gear hunting on hills--but I didn't look too hard for the overdrive disable switch (if it had one).



The Ridgeline rear window doesn't open as wide as the Trac, but the fact that it opens via power and provides ventilation was good enough for me.



Overall, the Ridgeline just seems tighter and much better put together than the Sport Trac. It seems more roomy on the inside. The driver's seat doesn't rock back and forth either.



Dad said he got an average of 23 MPG on a trip to Florida last month. (Of course Dad doesn't drive like I do!)

 

[Travis Munday]

Big D-

The tires being of poor quality if the fault of Goodyear, but Ford is to blame for using them. If quality truly was Job 1, Ford would not have choosen a tire that gets such poor ratings.



Gavin-

You hit the nail on the head as far as quality goes. While quality usually is subjective, there is normally little doubt between folks on what "quality" feels like. If you are used to European cars, Audi, BMW, Benz and the like, American cars are of very poor quality. Huge panel gaps (inside and out), misaligned panels, rough suspensions, clunky engines and transmissions, it all adds up. The problem is utimatly with how the cars are built. American cars are built using parts from the lowest bidder. Whomever can make the part the cheapest gets the nod.



It also starts with the bean counters while a car/part is being designed and engineered. The design specs may call for plastic that is 5/16" thick and feature a "soft touch" design. The bean counters say that will be too expensive and reduce the thickness to 3/16" with a molded in grain texture. They also reduce the number of attaching points. The result is a thinner part that doesn't feel of good quality is is more likely to misalign and warp.



However, American car companies have made HUGE strides within the past few model years. While they still are not quite as good as European makers, they are much better then they used to be. Compare a 1st Gen STs interior to a 2nd Gen, the panel gaps are much tighter, the plastic surfaces are much softer and sound and "feel" thicker, the buttons and user controls feel heavy and more precise, it all adds up to a higher quality feeling interior.



It's no secret that Americans lack quality, they admit it themselves, and the fact that they are now emulating European makes in interior design and materials is really helping. Unfortunatly, as long as American automobiles are built from parts from the lowest bidder, they will always fall short of the quality feel of the Euro makes.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Caymen, you admit the tires sucked...why did they suck? Were they poor quality?

They are made by Goodyear. I have never found a Goodyear tire I liked. Some of the Examples are the Wrangler RT/S, Eagle GT, Eagle GT+4. and some Goodyear Eagle tire Theresa had on her Pontiac.



I do agree it is Fords stupidity to ship vehicles with the Wrangler RT/S tires. Ford isn't the only auto manufacturer to use those same exact tires. One of the Japanese auto makers uses them too.



Wet, dry, snow, and mud traction were horrible. As I said, I have NEVER liked Goodyear tires and I would never buy a set aftermarket. I used to like Dunlop tires because of the bang for the buck they gave me, but since Goodyear now owns Dunlop tires, I no longer look at them.





Tom

 

[R 2]

Caymen - What treads do u use?

 

[Gavin Allan]

The Ridgeline had 22,000 miles on it. My '03 Adrenaline has 43,000 miles on it.



Trailer was a dual-axle flatbed trailer with a small bobcat on it. No brakes. We have hills here in the Ozarks, altitude is about 750 ft.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Caymen - What treads do u use?

BFG Radial Long Trail T/A

The Ridgeline had 22,000 miles on it. My '03 Adrenaline has 43,000 miles on it.

A fair comparison would be a 2007 Trac next to a 2007 RL. It is easy to say how much better a Mazda 3 is then a 1990 Honda Civic...or how much better a 2007 Civic is than a 1997 Ford Escort.





Tom