Johnny O
Well-Known Member
My Trac appears to have an electronically controlled fan clutch. There are wires running to it. If so, I take it that the fan is supposed to turn on when the engine is first started and the outside temperature is 10*?
Fan Clutch
- Thread starter Johnny O
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Vic Sorlie
Well-Known Member
Yep, it's electronically controlled all right. Maybe l1tech will verify, but link below is a good explanation of how they work.
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
I was kinda thinking that maybe it shouldn't be turning when it is this cold out.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
It will always turn due to bearing drag. However, it will not be directly coupled to the pulley and turn at the same speed.
All engine powered fans have some parasitic drag...and consume some HP. That's why I prefer electric fans...The only consume some electrical power when needed..like idling at a light,in hot weather. Once you get over about 30 MPH, the air going through the radiator will cool the engine coolant temp enough to shut off the fan. While driving down the road an highway speeds the electric fan is not drawing any power and gives a slight improvement in gas mileage.
...Rich
...Rich
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
It looks like it's turning at full speed. I stopped at the shop I use and they said they are seeing a lot of weird problems with the uber-cold weather. Moisture freezing in electrical contacts, that sort of thing. They said wait until the weather warms up a little and see if the problem is still there.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I can tell if my fan is engaged by rev'ving the engine a bit. If the fan is engaged, I hear a loud roar from the front of the track. If the fan is not engaged, all I hear is engine.
Maybe try unplugging the connector to the fan and see if that makes a difference. At least if the fan is not engaged with the connector unplugged, you will know that the ecu is sending a signal to engage the fan, and the problem does not lie within the fan clutch. You could reverse the test by applying 12v to the fan clutch terminals and see if it forces the fan to engage. That way you could verify that the clutch is working.
I would imagine a little diaganostic work with the Ford IDS could tell the technician a lot about what is actually going on with your fan.
Maybe try unplugging the connector to the fan and see if that makes a difference. At least if the fan is not engaged with the connector unplugged, you will know that the ecu is sending a signal to engage the fan, and the problem does not lie within the fan clutch. You could reverse the test by applying 12v to the fan clutch terminals and see if it forces the fan to engage. That way you could verify that the clutch is working.
I would imagine a little diaganostic work with the Ford IDS could tell the technician a lot about what is actually going on with your fan.
scott degroot
Well-Known Member
Any fan clutch will turn when it is cold due to the fluid in them bieng cold however once they warn up a bit should function normally unless it's REALLY cold outside. The hybrid fan clutches, the ones that are electric and hydraulic, function the same way except that they use an electric solenoid to determine how much fluid to allow to the clutch to acheive lockup. An rpm sensor inside of the fan clutch tells the pcm how fast the fan is spinning. The electric ones also decouple once you get above a certain speed. No fan clutch setup should ever not spin the fan with the engine at idle
As far as electric vs mechanical/ fan clutch setups go....I'll stick with my mechanicial fan setup any day. I have had 3 different vehcies over the years that I have tried electric fan setups on and saw absolutely 0 change in anything. Electric fans on a vehicle that came that way from the manufacturer are highly reliable but are not as foolproof as a mechanicial setup goes. What I do se ALOT of problems with is the electric fan conversions that people do, it seems these fail all the time.
As far as electric vs mechanical/ fan clutch setups go....I'll stick with my mechanicial fan setup any day. I have had 3 different vehcies over the years that I have tried electric fan setups on and saw absolutely 0 change in anything. Electric fans on a vehicle that came that way from the manufacturer are highly reliable but are not as foolproof as a mechanicial setup goes. What I do se ALOT of problems with is the electric fan conversions that people do, it seems these fail all the time.
l1tech,
I disagree. All fluid/electric clutch fans driving by the engine have parasitic drag whether they are warm or cold. When you rev the engine and the fan speeds up with the engine speed, that fan is being driven by the engine, and that does require some HP.
The other factor is that engine driven fans turn at their slowest speed when needed the most...that is idling in traffic on a hot day. Electric fans operate at full speed when they are needed regardless of the engine speed.
I have owned numerous vehicles with OEM electric fans, and I have converted several cars to use electric fans, and I have never had an electric fan failure. I have experienced several electric fan thermostatic controls failures and so I have always added a Thermostat Bypass switch so I can manually turn the fan on whenever I want, even if the Thermostat switch fails.
You are right in as much as you will not see much difference between the engine driven fan and an electric fan in normal everyday driving or if you drive in heavy traffic congested areas. Any gas savings in your daily commute would be so small that you would not be able to identify any savings because of the fluctuating traffic conditions....ie: Catching a traffic light you didn't catch yesterday, or heavier traffic, etc
However if you go on a long trips with highway speeds, you will start to notice a slight but measurable improvement in gas mileage.
Electric fans have been used in most small European and Japanese cars for many years because they improve gas mileage and provide a bit more HP especially in small engines.
That's also why most American's do not like Electric fans. We are used to our large, high HP V8's and cheap gas (cheap by European and Japanese standards). I do agree that many people will buy a cheap Electric fan conversion kit and just slap it on and twist some wires together and then complain that Electric fans are worthless, when it was really their shoddy installation that was worthless.
...Rich
I disagree. All fluid/electric clutch fans driving by the engine have parasitic drag whether they are warm or cold. When you rev the engine and the fan speeds up with the engine speed, that fan is being driven by the engine, and that does require some HP.
The other factor is that engine driven fans turn at their slowest speed when needed the most...that is idling in traffic on a hot day. Electric fans operate at full speed when they are needed regardless of the engine speed.
I have owned numerous vehicles with OEM electric fans, and I have converted several cars to use electric fans, and I have never had an electric fan failure. I have experienced several electric fan thermostatic controls failures and so I have always added a Thermostat Bypass switch so I can manually turn the fan on whenever I want, even if the Thermostat switch fails.
You are right in as much as you will not see much difference between the engine driven fan and an electric fan in normal everyday driving or if you drive in heavy traffic congested areas. Any gas savings in your daily commute would be so small that you would not be able to identify any savings because of the fluctuating traffic conditions....ie: Catching a traffic light you didn't catch yesterday, or heavier traffic, etc
However if you go on a long trips with highway speeds, you will start to notice a slight but measurable improvement in gas mileage.
Electric fans have been used in most small European and Japanese cars for many years because they improve gas mileage and provide a bit more HP especially in small engines.
That's also why most American's do not like Electric fans. We are used to our large, high HP V8's and cheap gas (cheap by European and Japanese standards). I do agree that many people will buy a cheap Electric fan conversion kit and just slap it on and twist some wires together and then complain that Electric fans are worthless, when it was really their shoddy installation that was worthless.
...Rich
Vic Sorlie
Well-Known Member
Not to stir the pot, but many cars now have transverse-mounted engines with FWD; that in turn mandated electric (and some hydraulic) fans. Hardest DIY job I've ever done was on a neighbor's 80-something V6 Camry that blew the PS pump, which also powers the main cooling fan. Said pump on this car is mounted low on block very tightly in front of firewall. Probably not a bad job for trained tech with car on a lift, but different story for this hack mechanic learning-as-he-went underneath car on stands. That one taught me a big lesson about offering to work on other peeps' cars. Woof!
Vic,
Yes, traverse mounted engines require electric fans, but many European cars with inline 4 cylinders and even V4's (yes them made, sold and raced them in Europe) and nearly all used electric fans.
The load from an engine driven fan was a major issue with all small 4 cylinder engines. That's why they never caught on in the US with conventional inline 6 cylinders and V8's. Plenty of power and cheap gas.
Now that everyone is trying to squeeze more and more miles out of every drop of gasoline, the Electric fan can do that, especially with highway mileage. At highway speed the fan is not needed and the electric fan has no parasitic drag. The engine powered fan is not need at highway speeds, but the parasitic drag does require some engine power at all speeds.
The hydaulic/electric clutch fans are much better than the old thermal sensor fans, but there is still some drag.
The other factor that I like about electric fans is that they operate at maximum efficiency when the cooling is needed the most, at low speed or when the engine is idling. The engine driven fan operates at it's least efficiency when its needed the most...to compensate, the fan must be bigger and move more air at less RPMs, which requires more engine power and more gas....That's why thermal controls are used on all fans...to save gas and HP. Years ago, fans were just pulley operated and they never wore out and gas was dirt cheap :grin:
...Rich
Yes, traverse mounted engines require electric fans, but many European cars with inline 4 cylinders and even V4's (yes them made, sold and raced them in Europe) and nearly all used electric fans.
The load from an engine driven fan was a major issue with all small 4 cylinder engines. That's why they never caught on in the US with conventional inline 6 cylinders and V8's. Plenty of power and cheap gas.
Now that everyone is trying to squeeze more and more miles out of every drop of gasoline, the Electric fan can do that, especially with highway mileage. At highway speed the fan is not needed and the electric fan has no parasitic drag. The engine powered fan is not need at highway speeds, but the parasitic drag does require some engine power at all speeds.
The hydaulic/electric clutch fans are much better than the old thermal sensor fans, but there is still some drag.
The other factor that I like about electric fans is that they operate at maximum efficiency when the cooling is needed the most, at low speed or when the engine is idling. The engine driven fan operates at it's least efficiency when its needed the most...to compensate, the fan must be bigger and move more air at less RPMs, which requires more engine power and more gas....That's why thermal controls are used on all fans...to save gas and HP. Years ago, fans were just pulley operated and they never wore out and gas was dirt cheap :grin:
...Rich
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Vic Sorlie
Well-Known Member
Good points Rich. I've owned several BMWs and the later ones have had both engine-driven and electric fans. The electric fans on these cars have two speeds and are common failure items. BMW has also done away with engine-driven water pumps in favor of electric WPs.
Vic,
Most BMW's don't really have an issue with power to drive the fan. but may use an electric fan to improve the gas mileage on some models.
Like I previously said, I have never had an electrical fan fail and leave me stranded on the side of the road, however I have had a few Electric Fan Thermostat switches fail and leave me stranded. That's why I always recommend adding a manual switch to bypass the Thermostat Switch. That way if the automatic temperature switch fails, you can turn on the electric fan manually and continue to drive the vehicle until you get around to replacing the bad switch.
In my experience, it is the Automatic Thermostat fan switch that is the weakest link of all Electric Fans, and probably why Electric fans have been getting a bad reputation for failures, but it is also one easiest to diagnose and fix.
...Rich
Most BMW's don't really have an issue with power to drive the fan. but may use an electric fan to improve the gas mileage on some models.
Like I previously said, I have never had an electrical fan fail and leave me stranded on the side of the road, however I have had a few Electric Fan Thermostat switches fail and leave me stranded. That's why I always recommend adding a manual switch to bypass the Thermostat Switch. That way if the automatic temperature switch fails, you can turn on the electric fan manually and continue to drive the vehicle until you get around to replacing the bad switch.
In my experience, it is the Automatic Thermostat fan switch that is the weakest link of all Electric Fans, and probably why Electric fans have been getting a bad reputation for failures, but it is also one easiest to diagnose and fix.
...Rich
scott degroot
Well-Known Member
On vehicles that have both a manual fan and also an electric the electric fan is typically meant for ac use only adn these fans are usually mounte in front of the ac condensor and push air through the condensor however you will find some that mount behind the radiator and pull air through it.
It is true that on electric fan conversions it is usually the thermostatic control device that fails or the wiring because MOST people do not understand how to properly wire these circuits. If you are going to install a conversion kit then a manual overide, like Richard explained, is a good idea. The problem is that WHEN it does fail and by the time MOST people notice that it has failed it is already too late because things have already become overheated. Most of the American public have become extremely lazy when it comes to cars and maintenance. The majority of them barely know how to put gas in the car so expecting them to actually monitor a temperature gauge while driving and then having to possibly flip a switch if there is a problem would be like expecting Congress to get along and act in the publics best interest.
Vic brings up a good point about electric water pumps. If you really want to see improvements forget the electric fan but get rid of the engine driven water pump. Alot of manufacturers are going this route now and I'm all for it, after all you don't need to constantly be circulating the coolant and certainly not as fast as a traditional water pump does. By regulating coolant flow with an electric water pump we can actually control the temperature of teh engien more precisely which results in even larger mpg savings. Don't get me started on the electric thermostats that are becoming more common place.
It is true that on electric fan conversions it is usually the thermostatic control device that fails or the wiring because MOST people do not understand how to properly wire these circuits. If you are going to install a conversion kit then a manual overide, like Richard explained, is a good idea. The problem is that WHEN it does fail and by the time MOST people notice that it has failed it is already too late because things have already become overheated. Most of the American public have become extremely lazy when it comes to cars and maintenance. The majority of them barely know how to put gas in the car so expecting them to actually monitor a temperature gauge while driving and then having to possibly flip a switch if there is a problem would be like expecting Congress to get along and act in the publics best interest.
Vic brings up a good point about electric water pumps. If you really want to see improvements forget the electric fan but get rid of the engine driven water pump. Alot of manufacturers are going this route now and I'm all for it, after all you don't need to constantly be circulating the coolant and certainly not as fast as a traditional water pump does. By regulating coolant flow with an electric water pump we can actually control the temperature of teh engien more precisely which results in even larger mpg savings. Don't get me started on the electric thermostats that are becoming more common place.
l1tech,
I once had a 1986 Dodge Mini van (no sympathy needed) that had two fans, one was for the radiator and the second was for the AC condenser. Both fans were mounted from behind and were puller fans. The radiator fan worked with a thermal switch, but when the AC was on, both fans ran continuously. That was one of my first Electric fan thermal switch failures and I initially just temporarily bypassed the thermal switch with a manual switch until I could locate a new thermal switch....That's when I came up with the idea of a manual bypass switch as a permanent backup for a failing thermal switch.
Good point about people not noticing things early enough to take corrective action. That's why I always have a temperature gauge and not just an idiot light....and I check my gauges often when driving...especially in the Texas heat.
I also agree with swapping out the old engine driven water pumps for Electric pumps, as well as electric power steering pumps. Unfortunately, there are not many conversion kits around and a lot more work.
...Rich
I once had a 1986 Dodge Mini van (no sympathy needed) that had two fans, one was for the radiator and the second was for the AC condenser. Both fans were mounted from behind and were puller fans. The radiator fan worked with a thermal switch, but when the AC was on, both fans ran continuously. That was one of my first Electric fan thermal switch failures and I initially just temporarily bypassed the thermal switch with a manual switch until I could locate a new thermal switch....That's when I came up with the idea of a manual bypass switch as a permanent backup for a failing thermal switch.
Good point about people not noticing things early enough to take corrective action. That's why I always have a temperature gauge and not just an idiot light....and I check my gauges often when driving...especially in the Texas heat.
I also agree with swapping out the old engine driven water pumps for Electric pumps, as well as electric power steering pumps. Unfortunately, there are not many conversion kits around and a lot more work.
...Rich
Dean Hedin
Active Member
I converted to a Ford 3.8 taurus fan in late December. I have a 2003 with 83K miles.
There is a slight increase in MPG (I am in process of measuring, but it's been pretty cold). There is a most definite boost in power. It's something you can feel in the seat of your pants, especially when your moving and it down shifts. But I'm shooting for economy and trying to keep a light foot.
Warm-up time is still heavily dependent on the thermostat opening, and remains about the same, with the exception if you sit and idle early in your trip.
I used the Volvo dual-speed relay and the BMW dual-temp 195F/210F sensor. This setup is well documented on other truck forums, just google it. I mounted the sensor on a piece of pipe and spliced this into the upper radiator hose. I think i may alter this once it gets warmer out. I think the temp sensor needs to be mounted closer to the radiator.
I may change to aluminum pipe as well.
The fan has hardly kicked on in the temps we have been in the past few weeks.
When it does kick on it runs for a while. I've pulled into the driveway and it has run for about 5 minutes after I've turned the key off. This is not a problem since it is running at the low speed and is only drawing about 10 amps during this time. I think moving the temp sensor closer to the radiator will improve things.
Unlike the guide in the member's project section of this website, I trimmed a minimal amount off of the Taurus shroud to get it to fit inside the Trac's shroud. This comes to about an inch or so off of each side. The goal was to get the Taurus shroud up against the radiator so you have a good air seal. I used 4 1" spacer and 1/4" bolts to mount the efan shroud to the tracs shroud.
One significant benefit of this setup is that it is now very easy to get clear access to the front of the engine for servicing. Just unplug the fan connector, two bolts of the shroud and out everything comes. Much easier than having to remove the fan clutch, which I thought was a PITA. I suspect the water pump bearing will last longer without the weight of the old fan on it.
So, still more tweaking needed but I am happy this far. I'm guessing I've spent about $110 for everything. Hoping the fuel economy improvements will payback in about 1-2 years time.
Still cheaper than buying a new aluminum F-150.
I do wonder about the reliability and how long my used Taurus fan will last. We shall see.
There is a slight increase in MPG (I am in process of measuring, but it's been pretty cold). There is a most definite boost in power. It's something you can feel in the seat of your pants, especially when your moving and it down shifts. But I'm shooting for economy and trying to keep a light foot.
Warm-up time is still heavily dependent on the thermostat opening, and remains about the same, with the exception if you sit and idle early in your trip.
I used the Volvo dual-speed relay and the BMW dual-temp 195F/210F sensor. This setup is well documented on other truck forums, just google it. I mounted the sensor on a piece of pipe and spliced this into the upper radiator hose. I think i may alter this once it gets warmer out. I think the temp sensor needs to be mounted closer to the radiator.
I may change to aluminum pipe as well.
The fan has hardly kicked on in the temps we have been in the past few weeks.
When it does kick on it runs for a while. I've pulled into the driveway and it has run for about 5 minutes after I've turned the key off. This is not a problem since it is running at the low speed and is only drawing about 10 amps during this time. I think moving the temp sensor closer to the radiator will improve things.
Unlike the guide in the member's project section of this website, I trimmed a minimal amount off of the Taurus shroud to get it to fit inside the Trac's shroud. This comes to about an inch or so off of each side. The goal was to get the Taurus shroud up against the radiator so you have a good air seal. I used 4 1" spacer and 1/4" bolts to mount the efan shroud to the tracs shroud.
One significant benefit of this setup is that it is now very easy to get clear access to the front of the engine for servicing. Just unplug the fan connector, two bolts of the shroud and out everything comes. Much easier than having to remove the fan clutch, which I thought was a PITA. I suspect the water pump bearing will last longer without the weight of the old fan on it.
So, still more tweaking needed but I am happy this far. I'm guessing I've spent about $110 for everything. Hoping the fuel economy improvements will payback in about 1-2 years time.
Still cheaper than buying a new aluminum F-150.
I do wonder about the reliability and how long my used Taurus fan will last. We shall see.
Dean,
It sounds like you did a good job and it should be reliable. My only suggestion would be to add a bypass switch for the thermal sensor so that you can manually turn the fan on if the thermal sensor switch fails....The thermal sensor switches seem to be the weakest link in most electric fan applications.
Good job...:supercool:
...Rich
It sounds like you did a good job and it should be reliable. My only suggestion would be to add a bypass switch for the thermal sensor so that you can manually turn the fan on if the thermal sensor switch fails....The thermal sensor switches seem to be the weakest link in most electric fan applications.
Good job...:supercool:
...Rich
EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
IDK about increase in the mpg. Todd Z, put his'03 on the dyno with electric fan conversion. No HP or TQ was gained.
A seat of the pants downshift is always deceptive. Especialy when we install something new. Even fools me sometimes.
Eddie,
I agree that a seat-of-the-pants measurement of HP is very subjective and often biased by the owner who wants to believe they did something good...often based on the money they spent. :grin:
I don't believe that the fan will increase HP enough to feel. I also disagreed with Todd Z dyno testing based on how he described the procedures used. You also have to realize that you can run 10 dyno pulls in a row without any changes, and you can get 10 different HP readings...all HP readings my be very close, but certainly not exactly the same. There are just to many minor variables that change from moment to moment, including engine temperature, barometric pressure, air temperature and density, fuel temperature, etc that make slight variations in the air/fuel ratio. That is not to mention the human factors like the operator of the dyno. And even the dyno equipment itself can vary during each dyno run because electronics change tolerances with temperature changes. While these changes are minor it only makes it more difficult to measure just exactly what the electric fan contributed to the total HP reading.... A dyno is not where an Electric Fan will show it's true value.
I agree that the hype about electric fans is exaggerated when they say that it will save 8-15 HP but I doubt that it would ever exceed one or two HP even under ideal Electric fan conditions. The main reason to use an electric fan is the gas savings during extended highway driving, and if you a a city driver, then you will get better cooling when idling along in city traffic. If you install the thermal sensor bypass switch that I recommend, you will have an added margin of safety from overheating.
As for reliability, I have had to replace more engine driven thermal fan clutches (4-5) than I have electric fans (0). The thermal sensors in both types of fans is the weak link and I have had to replace about as many Electric fan thermal sensors as I have engine driven thermal fan clutches.
...Rich
...Rich
I agree that a seat-of-the-pants measurement of HP is very subjective and often biased by the owner who wants to believe they did something good...often based on the money they spent. :grin:
I don't believe that the fan will increase HP enough to feel. I also disagreed with Todd Z dyno testing based on how he described the procedures used. You also have to realize that you can run 10 dyno pulls in a row without any changes, and you can get 10 different HP readings...all HP readings my be very close, but certainly not exactly the same. There are just to many minor variables that change from moment to moment, including engine temperature, barometric pressure, air temperature and density, fuel temperature, etc that make slight variations in the air/fuel ratio. That is not to mention the human factors like the operator of the dyno. And even the dyno equipment itself can vary during each dyno run because electronics change tolerances with temperature changes. While these changes are minor it only makes it more difficult to measure just exactly what the electric fan contributed to the total HP reading.... A dyno is not where an Electric Fan will show it's true value.
I agree that the hype about electric fans is exaggerated when they say that it will save 8-15 HP but I doubt that it would ever exceed one or two HP even under ideal Electric fan conditions. The main reason to use an electric fan is the gas savings during extended highway driving, and if you a a city driver, then you will get better cooling when idling along in city traffic. If you install the thermal sensor bypass switch that I recommend, you will have an added margin of safety from overheating.
As for reliability, I have had to replace more engine driven thermal fan clutches (4-5) than I have electric fans (0). The thermal sensors in both types of fans is the weak link and I have had to replace about as many Electric fan thermal sensors as I have engine driven thermal fan clutches.
...Rich
...Rich
Dan Long
Well-Known Member
I'm also running an e-fan setup, using an old junkyard Taurus fan and a Delta Current Controls variable speed controller. I've been running this for years now and have had it switched it between 3 or 4 different vehicles. Not an single problem from the fan, and it's still going strong, although I did have to send my controller off last year as it was acting a little wonky. Brian from DCC repaired it for about $30 and it's working perfectly again. I love the controller, the only thing is I would prefer a true coolant temp sensor rather than the sensor from DCC, which pushes in between the radiator fins near the coolant outlet. I've debated on modifying it like Dean has, but I haven't had any problems with the current setup, so why fix something that isn't broke?
I won't say that it's give a 15hp gain, but I can definitely tell a difference after installing it. The motor revs more freely and feels smoother, and it's a hell of a lot quieter! MPG is very hard to test accurately in the real world, but I do a lot of long distance driving and I feel it's safe to say I gained 1-2 MPG on those trips based on my calculations.
I won't say that it's give a 15hp gain, but I can definitely tell a difference after installing it. The motor revs more freely and feels smoother, and it's a hell of a lot quieter! MPG is very hard to test accurately in the real world, but I do a lot of long distance driving and I feel it's safe to say I gained 1-2 MPG on those trips based on my calculations.
