Are we fighting terror completely bass ackwards?

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Mark S 3

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Thought this was definitely worth the read...

-Mark





From wired.com http://tinyurl.com/mnxyt

[See orginal story at above url for many reference links. - D.P.]



By Bruce Schneier - Aug, 24, 2006



On Aug. 16, two men were escorted off a plane headed

for Manchester, England, because some passengers

thought they looked either Asian or Middle Eastern,

might have been talking Arabic, wore leather jackets,

and looked at their watches -- and the passengers

refused to fly with them on board.



The men were questioned for several hours and then

released.



On Aug. 15, an entire airport terminal was evacuated

because someone's cosmetics triggered a false positive

for explosives. The same day, a Muslim man was removed

from an airplane in Denver for reciting prayers. The

Transportation Security Administration decided that

the flight crew overreacted, but he still had to spend

the night in Denver before flying home the next day.



The next day, a Port of Seattle terminal was evacuated

because a couple of dogs gave a false alarm for

explosives.



On Aug. 19, a plane made an emergency landing in

Tampa, Florida, after the crew became suspicious

because two of the lavatory doors were locked. The

plane was searched, but nothing was found. Meanwhile,

a man who tampered with a bathroom smoke detector on a

flight to San Antonio was cleared of terrorism, but

only after having his house searched.



On Aug. 16, a woman suffered a panic attack and became

violent on a flight from London to Washington, so the

plane was escorted to the Boston airport by fighter

jets. "The woman was carrying hand cream and matches

but was not a terrorist threat," said the TSA

spokesman after the incident.



And on Aug. 18, a plane flying from London to Egypt

made an emergency landing in Italy when someone found

a bomb threat scrawled on an air sickness bag. Nothing

was found on the plane, and no one knows how long the

note was on board.



I'd like everyone to take a deep breath and listen for

a minute.



The point of terrorism is to cause terror, sometimes

to further a political goal and sometimes out of sheer

hatred. The people terrorists kill are not the

targets; they are collateral damage. And blowing up

planes, trains, markets or buses is not the goal;

those are just tactics.



The real targets of terrorism are the rest of us: the

billions of us who are not killed but are terrorized

because of the killing. The real point of terrorism is

not the act itself, but our reaction to the act.



And we're doing exactly what the terrorists want.



We're all a little jumpy after the recent arrest of 23

terror suspects in Great Britain. The men were

reportedly plotting a liquid-explosive attack on

airplanes, and both the press and politicians have

been trumpeting the story ever since.



In truth, it's doubtful that their plan would have

succeeded; chemists have been debunking the idea since

it became public. Certainly the suspects were a long

way off from trying: None had bought airline tickets,

and some didn't even have passports.



Regardless of the threat, from the would-be bombers'

perspective, the explosives and planes were merely

tactics. Their goal was to cause terror, and in that

they've succeeded.



Imagine for a moment what would have happened if they

had blown up 10 planes. There would be canceled

flights, chaos at airports, bans on carry-on luggage,

world leaders talking tough new security measures,

political posturing and all sorts of false alarms as

jittery people panicked. To a lesser degree, that's

basically what's happening right now.



Our politicians help the terrorists every time they

use fear as a cam
 
The real point of terrorism is

not the act itself, but our reaction to the act.



And we're doing exactly what the terrorists want.

I couldn't agree with you more. But ignoring it unfortunately is not the answer. If I'm going to be flying I will except the inconvenience to make sure of my safety. I do agree our present war on terrorism is not working and we need to take it to the next level, which means going after countries that harbor terrorist. But not like what we are doing in Iraq. We cannot let our politicians, media, and especially the UN get involved. They are making us loose in Iraq just like we lost in Viet Nam. It's time to get out the big guns and to hell with what other countries think of us. We have already lost any respect we once had so who the hell cares?
 
If you fight fire with fire then in the end everyone gets burned.



While I do agree with you, there is another saying.



"Don't bring a knife to a gun fight."





Tom
 
Exactly. Bring a laser-guided missile instead.



A fight is only fair if the person you are fighting will play by the same rules you fight under. In other words, if I get into a fight with one other person, it is only fair if his buddies don't join in if I start to win the fight. Once the buddies start in, all bets are off and I must fight with an advantage.



The same goes with the war on terrorism. Sometimes you need to shock the enemy to get them to understand that we mean business. That is what happened in Japan. They would have fought to the last man standing. Once the A-bomb was dropped, Japan realized they were in over their heads and had to give up, or face more of those bombs.



I know the war on terror is different then any war the USA has dealt with, but there is a point where enough is enough and innocent people must die. The attacks on 9/11 left MANY innocent people dead. If they don't care about me, why should I care about them? Turning the other cheek only goes so far. I might hate to fight, but sometimes I need to fight to ultimatly protect myself.





Tom
 
*3,204 on 9/11, last official tally;

* They started it, We need to find a way to finish it...(G.W. ain't no help!)...

*Caymen, excellent point on the "Buddies", thing...

Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc... They are all against us and our way of life here in the U.S.

They say that they are all against the U.S., because we cheat on our taxes, cheat on our

wives, look at the "Graven Images" (pictures) of naked women, yet they are all guilty

of the same things, just 'politics' in thier own country, where our servicepersons have found

naked, dirty pictures of women in the Aitolla's, (or however the hell you spell one of the

leaders of Islam's name) bedroom. What the hell do you think he (since all of the leaders over there are "he's") was doing over those pictures??? Praying, or reciting the Koran', ?

Hell, I don't think so! They are a bunch of animals, that have been raised to hate America,

and they will never, ever, know anything else! A Generation lost, over there! But not at the

expense of my beautiful grandchildren! (Straight) To Hell with them all! If you want to

become an American Citizen, come on over (or, up as the case may be for Mexico!).

I'll help them any way I can, but they must "Show Me" first, as I have a little bit of

Missouri background in me (!), that they want to be a part of America, and not destroy it!

Sorry to go too far off on it, but, hey! ...

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, Y'all are only foolin'

yourselves if you think it's anything else but a duck! (Re.: Racial/Ethnic Profiling).
 
I must say this, at the chance of losing any of Y'all's Respect:



Statik13,

When was the last time you posted, on our "Sport 'Trac" site, and what was it about?

Sounds a little too much like you know about the "Muslim" thing, and not enough about our

'Tracs!

Refer to the article that one of your Canadian Journalist posted, I believe it was around 1978,

that he had to say about the American way of Life an how generous and forgiving we were to

other countries, and their debts, and their attitudes toward us (the U.S.). The article that

sounded like it was written after 9/11, but was actually written in '78?

We're fixin' to cut y'all off!!! (They say Canada is the new Mexico!)
 
tracnblack. I usually post under "mark", but there's too many Marks around here so I thought I'd go back to my old name. I didn't write the article, so don't go biting my head off. Also, not quite sure what your point is in bringing up a 30 year old article? Wether it sounds like it should of been written post 911 is irrelevant.



As Caymen said, "the war on terror is different". Saber rattling or openly declaring war on any particular country isn't going to help a bit as they don't associate themselves with any country. This isn't that kind of a war. Only way we can win is by infiltrating their cells and destroying them from the inside.



I'm just pissed at seeing my own personal freedoms being eroded because of all these knee jerk reactions that the world governments are making. What's the latest? They are talking about putting RFID tags in passports? Ever hear this quote? "People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security." Never has it been more true.

 
I'm just pissed at seeing my own personal freedoms being eroded because of all these knee jerk reactions that the world governments are making.



Have you maybe wondered that these terror plots are being used by the government as tools to erode our freedoms to get control of it's people. We can stand back and say..."It will never happen, bla, bla, bla..." but many people in Germany, Russia, Cuba, and many other countries said the same thing.



As for the war on terror. Ultimatly, I hold the countries that the terrorists live in are partly responsible. I am sorry, I just can not accept the theory that Lebenon, as a county, can do nothing about Hezbolla. The same goes for Afghanistan or Pakistan. As long as a country does nothing to clean out terrorists in their country, IMO, they are supporting the terrorists.





Tom
 
maybe wondered that these terror plots are being used by the government as tools to erode our freedoms to get control of it's people.

One would hope not. At least up here we aren't seeing that. In fact, the Canadian government did (What I believe) is the right thing and passed legislation of the opposite, ensuring greater freedom of our personal information and even more privacy. Pretty gutsy move considering the world we live in today.



Ultimatly, I hold the countries that the terrorists live in are partly responsible. I am sorry, I just can not accept the theory that Lebenon, as a county, can do nothing about Hezbolla.

Good point. If any country in the world can do something about encouraging the unfriendlies to stop harboring terrorist, it would be the US. What about the friendly nations though? This latest terrorist cell was from England.
 
I know I probably won't gain a lot of friends or support with what I am about to say, but....I am beginning to think that our country is culpable in the terrorists threat that we face today. For several generations now we have interfered with Middle East, propping up and supporting dictator after dictator, in so that our interests could be maintained. I won't debate whether those interests were noble or not, but clearly we have had interests in the Middle East and we stood behind the scene pulling the strings, arming one but not the other, supporting one but not the other, etc.



In addition, as we have created dictators like Saddam who have turned over time from ally to enemy, we have stood by idly as these dictators literally raped and pillaged their own countries, driving a wedge of divisiveness between their country's "haves" and "have nots" that if the like existed in our country would lead to similar bloody revolutions we see common in the Middle East. Would our people stand idly by if we were the richest nation in the world yet a majority of its people were jobless, starving and without basic rights and freedoms?



So, as we are told by our leaders that "They hate us because of our freedoms", or "They want to kill us because we are a Christian nation", be a little introspective and consider if the tables were turned MIGHT we not hate also?



Go ahead…shoot me!



P.S. I am a Republican AND voted for GWB twice…and support the war on terror. But that doesn’t mean I have to believe everything that is said. A war is won through propaganda.



TJR
 
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TJR, well said. If you keep sticking your nose into other peoples business, you better be willing to get it cut off. On the other hand, ignoring it just won't let it go away either. Unfortunatly, we are to dependant on other countries (oil and the like) to not get involved and tick them off.



I agree with the opinions on the countries "harboring" these terrorists. They should be held accountable. They let these cells operate out of their land, and then say "wasn't us". I mean, even Saudi Arabia kicked Osama Bin Laudin out and he was a citizen. Yet Afghanistan will sit there and let him rome free. I know there is alot of desert/mountains that he can disappear into, but I have a feeling they know where he is and just lead us the other direction. Why? Because he won't sic his weak minded followers against them.;)
 
I think the world has larger issues to worry about than terrorism all together. The amount of people killed with terrorist acts are far less than that of starving poor people, in other countries, and our own. Why is it that countries are willing spend Billions (going to be trillions by time anything significant changes) on wars on countrys that are no threat to our overall way of life, but can only dig up millions (chump change) for the well being of poor and starving people.



If you are truely ridding the world of terrorism to save lives, try saving the millions of people dying in our countrys first... then worry about the small time terrorist acts... because in comparison, thats all they are in the whole scheme of things.



EDIT: By doing humanitarian deeds of saving lives in masses much more than are lost due to terrorism I beleive this would show the world we are true humanitarians and provide a better defence to terrorism by it... by this I mean instead of the hatred pointed at us, it would turn to compassion.



 
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Although a good point XST, we can't save the world. At some point countries need to be held accountable for their own actions. And your right TJR, our foreign policy has sucked for a long time with both Democrat and Republican congress. It would be nice to have some politicians that make decisions regarding our future than their own personal agendas.

I do believe the war with terrorist is going to get worse before it gets better. We cannot let down our guard. But we must find a more effective means of dealing with them. And if anyone suggests "diplomacy" then they obviously don't know these people. They only look at "negotiations" as a sign of weakness. Israel knows that but still bowed to the media and would not finish the job they started. Now their problems with Lebanon will just keep reoccurring. We need to learn from our mistakes and others.
 
Regardless of who or what party kept corrupt dictators in power (are there any other kind?), if the terrorism problem is because of downtrodded folks in the mideast, their problem is more with their own governments than mine. And if someone does have a problem with my government, take it up with them and leave me out of it. I don't like everything my government does either.

Now then, if there are a few Muslim guys causing aggravation or suspicion on a plane, the obvious answer is for some passengers to beat them to death. If this happens a time or two, they'll quit trying terrorist attacks on planes. I'm strong enough and mean enough to do it, and I wouldn't feel bad about it either.

Another means of defense is to make travel as uncomfortable as possible for Muslims and other middle eastern people. Eventually the sane ones will get weary of it and straighten out their own house.

Understand that I'm not hating on all Muslims, but the Methodists aren't trying to kill everyone. Frankly until 9/11 I didn't give them much thought. I'd be pretty stupid too if the Bible was the only book I ever read.

Regrettably, we're dealing with an immature and primitive mindset for whom logic doesn't work. The way you deal with a 4 year old who acts up is to give them a swat. These folks act like 4 year olds, albeit with bombs, AK's, and RPG's. So, we've got to give them a swat once in a while.

Political correctness, and not terrorism, will be the death of us. We have to waste a ton of time at airports searching everyone, so that it doesn't look like we're looking for who it is we're looking for. Saying that all Muslims are terrorists is ridiculous, but saying that all terrorists are Muslims isn't much of a stretch right now.
 
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This latest terrorist cell was from England.



Once England was aware of it, they did something about it...didn't they? Did Afghanistan do anything about it? What about Lebenon? That is the difference.



TJR, read the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins. I have already read it once, and I am reading it again. I plan to read it a few more times. Excellent book. It explains many things you mentioned and does help you to understand why some things are the way they are.





Tom
 
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