Any Electricians In The House?

[Carey Frennier]

This year has been HORRIBLE for income. We cannot get inventory to stay above water. I will make half, or slightly less than I made last year. Combine that with a 16 month old's expenses and daycare.....you get the idea.



One of the great things to come from this belt tightening is my DIY confidense. My wife and I didn't want to stop making out 1952 house better. I've done several rooms myself. Mostly pex plumbing, framing, sheetrock (god I hate sheetrock), doors and trim. We simply can't afford a contractor again and we really can't afford to stop fixing the place up.



So I have some basic understanding of how to rough in some electrical in my garage.



The garage gets it's power from the house and currently has two circuits. My home was upgraded to a 200 amp service during our huge renovation two years ago.



What I'll be running: table saw, miter saw, drill press, bench belt sander, bench grinder, bench scroll saw, bench band saw, planer, jointer and a dust collector. Not all at the same time but I'd like them all plugged in and ready to go at any time.



Question 1: Should I have each of these tools on their own circuit in addition to the lights?



I have one working outlet in my garage and I'd like to update that recepticle and add 5 or 6 more outlets.



I have one working light in the center of the garage and I'd like to add something inexpensive that can add at least 4 more lights (one over each work bench).



I'd like to have a sub pannel or load center in the garage itself so that if I trip a breaker, I don't need to run all the way back into the house to reset it.



Question 2: What should I look for in a load center or breaker box?



Question 3: What size wire should I get? A friend who knows about as much as I do said to get 14-2? I'm sure thats 14ga but what is the 2?



Question 4: For each dedicated "line" or circuit, I'll have to run the wire to that sole outlet/fixture and then straight back to the box correct?



Question 5: For each multiple recepticle circuit, I simply add the feed wire into the box, cut to desired length, then strip both ends and feed the wire back out to the next receptical correct?



Question 6: Should I run each light on their own switch to save power or should I just run them all off one switch because it's very likely that I'll have them all on anyway? Does the power savings offset the extra cost in running Romex back and forth?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Answer 1: All depends on the load of each individual appliance how many circuits for them. I would definitely run the lights on a separate circuit. Nothing worse than working with power tools and having them throw a circuit and the lights go out too.... very dangerous. Also, I'm pretty sure there is likely to be a local code for the lights to be on a dedicated circuit...only because I have seen that as the most common practice I suspect it must be code.



Answer 4: I think you are thinking about electricity the same way you do plumbing, thinking you have to take the source to your load/appliance/fixture and then back again. YOU DO NOT. The appliance, bulb, fixture, or receptacle completes the circuit so you start a circuit at the box and you terminate it at the last fixture/receptacle/light on the chain.



Answer 5: When running a line for multiple boxes DO NOT cut and feed between each box. Instead, run the wire to the first box, then push a 10" loop of the wire (when I say loop I mean the wire gets folded into a tight bend) through the box. Later, when you wire up that box you will cut the wire at the bend, strip and connect to the outlet.



Answer 6: How many circuits you want for the lights, to me, isn't about cost as much as it is about usefulness. If it is more useful to have them all on one circuit, then there is your answer. If it is not that useful or not useful at all for them to be all on one circuit, then run and switch multiple and in the long run you will likely enjoy some cost savings.



P.S. I am NOT an electrician, but I am an electrical engineer. I wired our own basement 13 years ago, to code, and I went out and got a codes book from an electrician friend.



TJR

 

[Bill V]

I'm no electrician either, but I did do most of the electrical work when we were finishing part of our basement last year, and I did it under the supervision of a professional electrician. Technically, he made me his 'apprentice' during the job. He handled all the inspections and permits (which is why I needed the apprentice designation, to be able to do work under his professional permit), and did anything I didn't feel capable of doing (which very quickly became almost nothing), answered any questions I had along the way, and checked over my work prior to having an inspector look it over. So I can answer some of your questions, but likely not all.



One recommendation--Get and read a book. Home Depot's book about electrical/wiring is very good. You sound a lot like I was before I got started, and that book was good enough that it was well worth purchasing rather than borrowing from the library. There are other competing books, likely very good, but I can't comment either way on their quality. But I really like the Home Depot one.



To your questions:



1) This depends on what you realistically expect to have running at the same time in the garage, and what their wattage is. Watts = Amps x Volts. A typical 15 amp circuit, running at 110, is therefore capable of 1650 watts. Realistically, you don't want to use 100% of that, so go with about 80% of that, or 1300 watts. Start checking the equipment you want to run out there, and what each of their wattage is, and think what you will actually be running under full draw at the same time. Odds are, you won't have more than one or two running at once, so in all likelihood, you'd be fine having them all on a single breaker. (Also consider the risk involved should a breaker be tripped. If a breaker trips while a saw is running, you're there, and can reset it. If a breaker trips while a refrigerator or freezer is running, you may not be there, and may lose all your perishable goods.) Same goes for the lights--what is the wattage of any lights you'd want to have on at once. (Obviously, for this, the odds of them all being on at once is significantly higher.) Add it up, and see what it comes to. Note that this is an opportunity where the new CFLs can be helpful, as they draw less wattage. There are limits to how many lights and/or outlets you want to have on a single circuit, regardless of the wattage--I don't recall them off the top of my head, check your book for details.



If you're wanting to put in an auxiliary panel/sub-panel, it'll require significantly larger wire connecting the main and auxiliary panels. (I suspect it'll be 8-3 or even 6-3). We added a panel (our situation was backwards from yours--our main panel is in the garage; we added a subpanel in the basement), and were very happy we did. But then again, we were adding about a dozen circuits in the basement, so it made no sense to run those all the way back. In your case, you'll likely have far fewer circuits, so that won't be a factor--but I can understand the convenience factor you mentioned, so it may still be worth it. Especially from the standpoint that if you add the subpanel, put all your outlets on one or two circuits, and find you're tripping breakers regularly, you have the box handy so that you can add another circuit with relative ease. The book will walk you through it decently. If you're feeling at all unconfident about your own abilities, this is the one area you mentioned I'd consider an electrician--but I suspect you can handle it.



2. Not really sure. The electrician I was working with chose ours, I just installed it. For what you're doing, it sounds like a relatively small one would suffice. But I'd read up about it, and/or talk to someone. (For this, even the electrical lackey at your local Home Depot/Lowe's may be sufficient.) Our sub-panel is 100A--I suspect you're smaller system wouldn't need more than a 50A or even less.



3. If you're going to just be running 15 amp circuits, 14-2 is sufficient. If there's anything which requires a 20 amp circuit, you'll likely need 12-2. The "-2" is the number of wires (excluding the ground) in the wire--so 14-2 has the one hot wire, a negative (typically, although if you're running 220 through it, it's actually a second hot), and a ground. If I remember correctly, the first number is the denominator of the wire diameter, stated in inches--14 has a diameter of 1/14", 12 has a diameter of 1/12", 6 has a diameter of 1/6", etc.



4. Yes, if you have a dedicated circuit, the wire just does a run from the breaker box to the destination.



5. I think you have the idea, although the schematics and descriptions in the book I recommended will help confirm things. There are requirements for things like anchoring wire to studs/supports, etc., that will require some extra slack in the wire. And then connecting the wire to the outlets can vary, depending on if you want them all on a single GFCI, etc. But the main idea you state sounds like you're getting the concept.



6. I wouldn't let the power savings decide this question for you, as much as the convenience and how you feel you will want to use it. If you think you will want to just turn them all on, and then turn them all off, just use a single switch. If you want the ability to turn each one on or off independently, install multiple switches. (You can do this while keeping them all on the same circuit--just keep hot power going to each switch, and then have the switch control the power going from each switch to the associate light fixture.) You can even do a combination of the two if you want--give some/all of the lights their own switches (or just get lights with their own switches/pull cords built in), and then have a master switch by the door where you can kill power to the whole circuit at once. If you're concerned about power savings, CFLs or other energy-saving lights will do far more than any switch control system. (If I remember correctly, you're in Florida, right? If so, I would think CFLs would be fine in your garage. Many of them don't do so well in cold climates, so if you lived farther north, I might think twice before recommending them.)

 

[Bill V]

Re: #4--I read the question the first time a little different than what TJR did. So let me amend my answer--



If you have a dedicated 15A circuit (powering one outlet/device), then you run a 14-2 wire straight from the box to that outlet. (Switch to 12-2 for 20A.) There's no need to run another wire "back" to the box--that's what the negative wire in your 14-2 is for.

 

[Richard L]

I am not an electrician, but I have done a lot of house wiring over my 66 years.



Answer 1: It is highly unlikely that you will be running more than one or two tools at once. You will probably be running your dust collector when you are using any of the major dust producing tools, so it should be on a separate circuit. Keeping a power tool plugged in does not use any power or put any load on the circuit, so as long as the circuit can handle the tool with the largest power requirements, you should be fine running your tools off single circuit, but it would not be a bad idea to divide up the shop into several zones so that you can run several tools at once if that becomes necessary...You may be able to run some smaller tools off the same circuit used for your dust collector.



Answer 2: You need a circuit panel that can handle or exceed the maximum amperage load for the number of cirucuits you plan to install. If you plan on installing 4 separate circuits you should get a circuit panel that will hold at least 4 breakers, and it's always better to have a few spares.



Answer 3: Yes, 14-2 is is a 2 wire cable of 14 gauge wires. You will also want to be sure that you have a 3rd ground wire in the cable. With the ground they will often label the cable as "14-2 with ground". You can look at the cable and see if there is a bare third grounding wire.



Answer 4: If it is a dedicated circuit you only need to run a single 14-2 cable from the circuit panel to the outlet/fixture....that will contain the hot, neutral and ground to complete that circuit.



Answer 5: You are essentially correct. Most outlets have 2 sets of hot and neutral connector screws, so you can connect the two wires to the once side of the outlet, and the outgoing wires to the other side of the outlet and on to the next recepticle.



Answer 6: Not sure why you need each light on a separate circuit? I prefer to use 48" florescent lighting in my shops. You can buy inexpensive 2-4 bulb florescent shop lights that give better overall general lighting for your shop and they consume much less power than incandescent lighting. I have them in my shop/garage and I usually just leave them on 24/7. Florescent lights require more power to turn them on and they last much longer if you don't keep flipping them on an off.



If you want to install some localized task lighting over a work bench or at a tool, you may be able to just use a portable light that you can move from tool to tool. If you want them hardwired you could just wire them into any of your lighting circuits if the task light has a separate switch so you can turn it off and on as needed.



...Rich

 

[Carey Frennier]

Good info.



To keep it all really simple. I'll just do all the lights on one circuit, seperate from the outlets.



I think I'll do one circuit for the table saw and the dust collector and I'll do the rest in two circuits.



So I can have all my 110 units on lines with 14-2 and I could have my 220 units on a single line of 12-2? I can mix and match the gauge wire I need? I guess it makes perfect sense that you can mix and match them.



The feed wire from the house to the garage is pretty small. I should be able to just shut off the main in the house and take that wire and couple it to the new breaker box right?



Should I run a GFCI or a 12-2 line for the electric pressure washer? It's tripped breakers in the past.

 

[Allan Reed]

Re 220 volt circuits.

In our area all 220 volt circuits require 14-3 or 12-3 or larger lines the same as the larger ones for stoves and dryers

14-3 equals 4 14 qauge wires -- 1 bare- ground -- 1 white - neutral -- 1 red - hot and 1 black also hot

14-3 is also essential for hooking up 3 and 4 way switches for lights. Very handy to have lights controlled from each entrance.

120 volt circuits require 1 circuit breaker while 220 volt circuits require 2 circuit breakers fed from proper locations in panel

 

[Allan Reed]

Also in our area wiring can be done by yourself on your own property under a homeowners permit.

These permits require you to own property and your family be the only residents.

They can not be used on rental properties.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Psycareyo,



Check the codes regarding placement of switches and receptacles. There is a height from floor and distance from the door opening for switches, and a height from floor and max distance between set of codes for receptacles. I know the height of receptacle outlets in a garage is (should be) higher than those in a house.



As for GFCI, if the circuit is known to be near water (e.g. is outside) or powers things that might get wet (like a pressure washer that is used inside to wash cars) then by all means use a GFCI outlet for that circuit.



TJR

 

[Gavin Allan]

i installed a subpanel in my basement a few years ago when I finished it. Put in a 100 amp panel with 8 circuits- two of which go to my hot tub (60amps max). I can;t remember for sure, but I didn't have to use 4/3wG to feed to the subpanel. Seems I used TNN 4ga x2 for the load, 6ga for the neutral, and 8ga for the ground. Saved a whole bunch of money putting the THNN in conduit over comparable Romex.



I used 12ga wG for all 115v circuits. It was just easier that way, and seems a little safer. I would not use 14 ga for shop recepticals.



Agree with putting the dust collector on its own circuit. Also at least one other circute for the power tools. I'd put the pressure washer on its own circuit, and lighting for sure on its own circuit. maybe use the existing circuits from the house for the lighting and the dust collector if they are only serving them. Pull a separate feeder from the service panel for the subpanel. You probably need GFCI protection on all of it except lighting. since you are below grade. Spare circuits are handy for future needs.



Agree with reading up on this. Read the NEC code. If you don't know what you are doing, then don't do it. You want it safe, but also efficient. Code can really help.

 

[Robert Thomas]

I do about anything around the house and have all the tools you mentioned plus a couple of more. I tend to stay away from doing electrical if at all possible. However, I can offer a couple of suggestions.



I have found that 15 amp with a gfi on the wall works good for he tools you described. If you trip one of those, it is probably because it is not under a safe load. I consider it a early warning signal before I get hurt.



Have as many wall outlets as you can and a couple of overheads come in handy. I have not had a lots of luck with floor outlets, but one comes in handy under your bench.



Wire a couple of 220's. Convert anything that you can to 220. Some stand up tools are pre wired to run either way.



Framing - is you only chance to get it straight - a square is the only thing you need.



Painting - it's OK to drink while you are doing it.



Plumbing - sh*t runs downhill - just buy all new parts for a toilet leak.



Roofing - have the shingles delivered to the roof - your back is going to hurt.



Drywall - (You already know)



Concrete work - invite your friends over



Wallpaper - you can go to any judge and just say "Wall Paper" and they will grant you a divorce with no other questions asked.



:banana::banana:

 

[Bill V]

Yes, it sounds like you could have all your 110 on 15A circuits with 14-2 wire. But verify that you don't have anything which will draw more than that, for which a 20A circuit (using 12-2) may make sense, or even be required. (Plugs for devices which require a 20A circuit will have an extra leg on one of the prongs, making it impossible to plug them into a 15A outlet.) Some things require a dedicated 20A circuit, per code--for example, the pump in our master bedroom jacuzzi tub has a dedicated 20A circuit. I wouldn't be surprised if something like the dust collector may recommend/require that. Check its manual.



I suspect that the garage will not need arc fault protection, but it may be a nice safety feature to have in your breakers nonetheless, even though they are significantly more costly.



I didn't need to do any 220 circuits when I was wiring so I can't speak from experience--but I could swear that the electrician I was working with said that, at least in our area, there was no need to go to "-3" wire for it--it was just the two hot wires and the ground. But I may be mistaken on that. If you want/need 220, do the homework first.



If you're unsure about anything, even after reading up--talk to an electrician, and see if you can hire him/her basically as an as-needed consultant. Anytime you call and/or have him/her out to give advice, s/he starts the clock, and bills you for the hours. I suspect you can find one who would be happy to do it, as I did. Sure, it's an expense--but it's a whole lot cheaper than either having the electrician do everything, or having an inspector tell you that you did it wrong and need to redo it, or having a safety issue due to lack of knowledge result in a fire. You may also be able to purchase materials from him/her at a discount, as they buy in bulk. For example, my electrician sells me wire at the per-foot bulk price he pays, regardless of how much/little I use, which is MUCH cheaper than buying short lengths from any store.



Pressure washer--since it's a wet area, definitely GFCI. Whether it's 12-2 or 14-2 depends on whether you need a 15A or 20A circuit.

The feed wire from the house to the garage is pretty small. I should be able to just shut off the main in the house and take that wire and couple it to the new breaker box right?

Depends on what you mean. If you mean to take that wire to the new subpanel as a means of delivering power from the main panel to the subpanel--no. You're going to need something capable of delivering as much power as the subpanel is rated for. If, say, it's a 50A panel, I suspect you're going to need 8 or 10 guage, maybe even 6.

If you mean, once your subpanel is hot, can you rewire that existing outlet to the new subpanel. Yes, absolutely--although if you don't need it to be it's own circuit, you may be able to add it to another chain of outlets instead, and thus have a shorter run and not need to buy another breaker. Or, you can always leave it wired to the house panel--less effort, and perfectly acceptable, although you'll want to know in that case that killing subpanel power doesn't necessarily kill all power in the garage. Actually, that may be a reason to leave the lights connected to the main panel in the house--you can kill everything else in the garage by simply shutting down the subpanel, but you'll still have lights in the garage. Just a thought.

 

[Bill V]

accidental double-post

 

[Richard L]

I would recommend that you contact a local electrician to come to your house and give you a detailed quote to do the work. He should specify the type and amount of cable needed to complete the job, then number of circuits needed to handle your tools and the proper size cable to connect your garage/shop to your house main panel.



You don't need to hire him to do the job, but you can get a professional estimate that should meet code in your area. Then you will know the exact wire gauge to use, the number of circuits, and pretty much everything you need know to do the job yourself.



It's hard for anyone to tell you what you should do without seeing exactly what you want, and what the distances are between your house and garage/shop, the current load on your existing panel, and knowing the exact power requirements of your tools...amperage, watts, HP, etc.



...Rich

 

[Gary DiPietroSr]

I worked for a couple of electricians over the years and I would run 12-2 for the outlets on a 20 amp circuit and 14-2 for the lighting on a 15amp circuit. If you have the room in the panel, make it 2 20 amp circuits, and split them up. Most codes require GFIC protection also. They can be in the outlet itself or in the circuit breaker. Be careful if you plan on leaving the garage unfinished, romex can be cut or damaged from tools in the garage. The link may shed some light on this for you.

 

[Bill V]

After Allan's comment that he thought all 220V in his area requires 14-3 or 12-3 (instead of 2-wire), I did a small amount of looking into it. Normal 110 involves a 110V source (black wire) and a neutral (white). 220 is achieved by having another 220V source which is exactly out of phase with the black 110V, running on the red wire. It's effectively a negative-110V. Therefore the difference between black and red is 220V. If you have a white wire, it's neutral, such that the difference between black and white is still 110V, as is the difference between red and white. To the best I can tell, there are some 220V devices and outlets which only use 220V (and thus just have two wires, plus the ground), while others also have the third white wire (plus the ground)--I'm guessing it's so some parts of the device can still be driven off of 110V. So--if you're using a 3-wire outlet or device needing the white, then yes, you'll need to run 14-3 or 12-3, and have a double-breaker to attach both wires. However, if your outlet or device doesn't need the neutral, you can just wire it with 14-2 or 12-2. You'll still need the double-breaker to the box, and you'll want to color both ends of the white wire to be red (either by wrapping them with red tape, or by using a red sharpie on them), so anyone working on it in the future will be aware that it's a hot wire. (Note, it isn't that one is "positive" and the other "negative"--they're just opposite each other in phase. On their own, each is 110V. So when you route either one to a device and then to a neutral wire, you'll get the exact same 110V.)



This brings up one of the most confusing parts of electrical work for me--why, in a car, is it that red is hot and black is neutral; while in house wiring, both black and red are hot and white is neutral? I'm willing to bet there have been tons of shocks and injuries resulting from inexperienced people getting done working on their car, thinking the black is neutral, coming into their house, and touching the black wire. Can't the two parts of that industry find common ground? (No pun intended.)

 

[Allan Reed]

Re. Can't the two parts of that industry find common ground? (No pun intended.



2 different industries --Automotive uses low voltage DC

Housing uses AC



Working as a power lineman we considered anything under 1000 volts as low voltage



In a lot of 220 appliances the neutral is still needed for the 120 volt control circuits