Rant - Dealer Service Diagnostic Fees

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So would it be better if we broke it down so you can see everything involved in the repair of a car. Lets start by charging you 1 hour for diagnostics, lets take that money and deduct for paying the mechanic to look at your car, the parts guy to look up and price the appropriate parts for your vehicle, the service writer to put together an estimate, the shop insurance, the utilities, employee benefits, and let's not forget the little extras like beverages in the waiting room or perhaps the customer shuttle so you can get to work if you need oh and last but not least our dear friends at the federal, state and local need theirs also. And then after all is said and done and you pay for it all...which you will either put on a credit card or use your debit card we can deduct 3% that I have to pay so you can use said card at my establishment...or do you actually expect us to do it all for free and give you a 12 month 15,000 mile warranty on top of it all



Does Wal-Mart bill you for the truck driver to deliver the goods?



Does Wal-Mart charge you to stock the shelves?



Does Wal-Mart charge you for the person that tells you where to find the items you are looking for?



Does Wal-Mart charge you to check your out?



Do they charge you for the use of a cart?



No, this is the part of doing business. Your job to perform my job is to diagnose the issue, write up the bill and take my money.



This is my point.





Tom
 
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Does Wal-Mart bill you for the truck driver to deliver the goods?



Does Wal-Mart charge you to stock the shelves?



Does Wal-Mart charge you for the person that tells you where to find the items you are looking for?



Does Wal-Mart charge you to check your out?



Do they charge you for the use of a cart?



No, this is the part of doing business. Your job to perform my job is to diagnose the issue, write up the bill and take my money.



This is my point.



There is no problem with that, however when Scott gives you a bill that shows $160 per hour for labor you shouldn't whine about it.



There will be no shop supplies, no disposal fees, and of course don't complain about the 300% mark up on the part.



There will not be a diagnostic fee either, but when he tells you what's wrong with YOUR car there is a 1 hour minimum labor charge for his guys to drop what ever they are doing to serve you.



Deal??

 
There will be no shop supplies, no disposal fees, and of course don't complain about the 300% mark up on the part.



They already mark it up 400%.



Case in point, I got a wheel bearing for the Explorer for 53.00. Brand new...in box. Cost for a shop, for the part alone, not including labor is over $200.00. I purchased it RETAIL for $53.00. Repair shops buy them at wholesale.



There will not be a diagnostic fee either, but when he tells you what's wrong with YOUR car there is a 1 hour minimum labor charge for his guys to drop what ever they are doing to serve you.



If any mechanic NEEDED me to survive, they are going to die. I do not take my car to a mechanic. The only thing I will not touch is a tranny. Of course, got an honest tranny guy that does not hide charges because he understands that the cost to do business is the cost he should charge and adding "extra's" is a scam.





Tom
 
I know it sure isnt easy to find a good honest mechanic in Miami FL. I have neve taken my vehicles to a dealer for repair. Warranties on old cars only cover major catastrophic issues not anything routine.



My main issue with mechanics has been with them not putting things back together properly. I have tried many mechanics throughout the years all of them are the same. I mostly do all my own work due to this.
 
I have tried many mechanics throughout the years all of them are the same.



Sorry about your luck, maybe you should do a little research before you take your vehicles in. Stay away from chain stores, while every once in a while you may find a good tech there they pay the lowest wages out there and that only breeds incompetence in the workplace...dealerships are not much better, while your chances of finding a good tech there is better, the most senior of dealership techs are tasked with the problem child vehicles. IMO the independent shops with 20+ years in the business are your best bet, they usually have better quality techs, are equipped to handle todays vehicles and genuinely care about you, your vehicle and your business.
 
1tech said:
Sorry about your luck, maybe you should do a little research before you take your vehicles in.



I know you weren't talking to me, but I must say, it's the general attitude like that which I think must go away.



When did we STOP expecting that everyone should do a competent job? At what point did we become a society where "doing things right" is no longer the norm? Why is it that one must become an expert in navigating the murky waters of "finding the right" service provider in order to get good service?



I see that attitude here all the time. People say: "Did you try a different dealer?", or they say things like "Ford is trying to cater to a wide audience of people and tastes" (for example, when discussing a "defect", such as bad OEM shocks).



This general attitudes comes off, to me, as apologetic crap.



When we expect less people tend to deliver less.



TJR
 
When did we STOP expecting that everyone should do a competent job?



I think its always been this way, some folks accept it others dont. I don't accept it and I also do research so I'm informed.



I can feel for mechanics with the diagnostic fees though. I work with computers, sometimes it can take me days to figure out why something is behaving in a certain way and takes me only minutes to fix it once I realize where the problem lies.



I have end uses ask me all the time how long it will take me to fix there PC and I tell them I dont really know since I have yet to determine the issue. I dont really work with end users though which is good cause I'm not a real people person. ;)
 
Clusterpup,



Today's computers are largely disposable...and would be totally disposable if people would use online information services. I fix computers "on the side" too. Many times I have recommended to people that it will be cheaper/better to buy a new computer than it will be to have me "fix" their old clunker.



Everyone in service, of any type, should first and foremost be a people person (MHO). Service is ultimately about people. If they people aren't satisfied and don't think they are getting a good deal, all else is pointless.



TJR
 
In My local the car buis is ruthless, tons of auto rows competing for customers.

They cannot afford to dole out shoddy service.

Maybe TJR you are just unlucky or have a bad attitude.

I have NEVER had an issue with a dealer performing service in the past 30 yrs.

all has always been perfect.

Your 100% right 0n with puters tho, my 3 yr old Dell crapped out last month.

Friend of mine (puter guru bar none) says Bill, this puter is crap, always has been, always will be.

Give me 300 bux, will build you a new puter from scratch,Next day he brings me the finest machine I have ever had, all for 300 bux.
 
Bill Barber,



No bad attitude here, unless "expecting too much" is a bad attitude.



There are only about three larger dealer chains in the area I live now and therefore, IMHO, they have become complacent. The "small guy" is hit or miss, and the really good ones have more business than they can handle and therefore your emergency repairs may take a week or two. Plus, the really good "small guys" have started doing more "hobby car" work, because they can charge more.



I do think it is probably an expectations thing.



For example, our 2000 Impala that was just off warranty. I took that car back to the dealer for service with few miles over, but several months under warranty expiration. I took it in for a multifunction switch replacement, and I told the dealer that the dimmer portion of the switch is shot and the entire unit needs to be replaced.



At that time I expected:



a) To *NOT* be charged an $80 diagnostics fee.



b) To be given some "deal" on the parts and labor costs for the replacement, since, the car is still well under the *time* portion of the warranty.



My expectations above are pretty well founded, though not 100% black and white. I knew the problem already and told the dealer when they wrote up the service order, and at BEST it took one or too pulls on the dimmer switch to verify. As for the warranty a dimmer switch wear is based on the number of times you drive at NIGHT which is a function not so much of miles, but of how long you have had the car...which as I said, was UNDER the warranty duration period. Besides, I rarely drove the car at night, and when I did, it was mostly around town so always dimmed and not switching back and forth. From my vantage point the part was shoddy and shouldn't have "went" at 2.5 years.



I didn't want to get "raped" to the tune of almost $400 that day for the total repair bill, which was what it was going to be when they called with an "estimate". I had them break down the estimate over the phone. I politely indicated that I was NOT going to pay a diagnostics fee since I told them what the problem was it it would take a few seconds to verify. In addition, I asked them if they would consider covering part of the cost under the warranty since the car was still less than 36 mos old, and the part in question should fail not based on milest driven, but times used...a function of the calendar. Also, I told them I wasn't going to pay inflated dealer resale price on the part. They wanted $250 for a part I could by on-line for 1/2 that. After politely airing all my grievances and asking for consideration they offered NOTHING.



They asked if I wanted them to go ahead and "do the work." I said "NO", and then drove to pick up the car.



At the dealer I was polite until it was clear that was getting me nowhere, and then I told them to just give me my car. They said I would still have to pay the diagnostics fee. To that I told them that we should call the local police, because I wasn't going to pay them anything and it was my opinion that they were illegally holding my car ransom.



Then, they changed their tune. The service managers went into a back room, they talked, then they waived the diag fee (that should have never been there), and cut the total repair bill by 1/2. So I paid a little over $160 for the whole job...which at the end of the day I am STILL sure they made money on...just not SILLY money.



I've never bought anything from that dealer again...though they sold us the car in question before. We were actually looking at a new car at that time from the dealer. I told the sales guy that his service dept cost him a sale, and no doubt other future sales.



They lost a customer all over approximately $200.



TJR
 




Here is the problem...



At that time I expected:



In addition, I asked them if they would consider covering part of the cost under the warranty since the car was still less than 36 mos old, and the part in question should fail not based on milest driven, but times used...a function of the calendar.



When you bought the car, you knew the warranty.



Also, I told them I wasn't going to pay inflated dealer resale price on the part.



Based on your description above, you are the customer everyone hates. You self-diagnose and bitch about the price.



They lost a customer all over approximately $200.



Not sure they wanted you to come back. You can't please everyone regardless of what you do, unless you do it for free. You expected something for nothing and were dissappointed in their response.



It's all about expectations...
 
They already mark it up 400%.



Case in point, I got a wheel bearing for the Explorer for 53.00. Brand new...in box. Cost for a shop, for the part alone, not including labor is over $200.00. I purchased it RETAIL for $53.00. Repair shops buy them at wholesale.





Does anybody on here own a F-Series with a 7.3L diesel? Have you had your cam sensor replaced? Before they issued a recall on those, dealer cost was about $100. Now retail on that same part is $27.62. All Ford did was change the part number. It is the same part. Before accusing the dealer of ripping you off, please think, maybe it's not the dealer, it could be Ford Motor Co and their suppliers taking the dealer for a ride. Also, Autozone and WalMart can sell Motorcraft and even some Ford OEM parts cheaper than the dealer can buy them from Ford directly because of agreements those companies worked out that we can't get from Ford and we are supposed to be on the same team!
 
Les,



Yeah, I am sure that I am the type of customer that "some" in customer service hate as I am the type of customer that doesn't like to be taken advantage of.



I don't always diagnose my own problems, but in this case the problem was obvious. For example, a tire center doesn't charge to diagnose a flat tire. Again, that's an obvious problem. A mechanical, driver activated switch that has gone bad and that you can FEEL has gone bad (the part within the switch that allowed the high beams to "click on" broke or wore out and wasn't doing its job...you could feel and hear that) is another "no duh!" problem to diagnose. I don't think I should pay $80 for the dealer to verify that which is already verified and can be re-verified by them with one or two pulls of a switch; especially since I told them the switch was bad.



Also, I didn't expect something for nothing. I was willing to pay something, something that was reasonable I should add. Paying to diagnose an obviously broken/worn part that I told them was broken isn't reasonable. We can disagree about that, I guess, but I will go to my grave saying it wasn't reasonable. Paying full, gouged prices to fix something that shouldn't have broken, and if had broken two weeks earlier would be covered isn't extremely customer friendly....and therefore verges on the unreasonable.



Had they not tried to charge the diagnostics fee I might have let the other price gouging slide. But as others have said here, most shops waive the diag fee if they end up doing the work. To add insult to injury, this shop doesn't even do that.



Last but not least, I told the dealer that the switch had been acting up for some time, but that I waited until I needed my next oil change to bring in the car. I figured that would be okay since I had described the switch starting to go during earlier warranty work (which they failed to document, but remembered when I brought it up). They also stated that "if I had come in for more oil changes" that they "might be willing to give me a discount on the repair". I would have gone in for more oil changes IF they did a good job, at a fair price, and I didn't have to leave the car for a day. Again, holding a fair deal "ransom" is not very customer friendly.



My expectations were to:



a) Not be insulted.



b) Not be gouged.



c) To have some level of consideration for a part that IMHO shouldn't have worn so quickly, on a car that was literally weeks off of warranty; especially expecting that consideration since I purchased the car at said dealer and warned them of the part going bad several months prior.



They met none of my expectations.



The sales manager said, and I quote:



I'm sorry, but the car is off warranty and we can't give away parts and service. The fact that you bought the car here has no barring on our decision as the service dept runs on a different cost and profit center from sales.



Before you folks say that the above comments/reasons are acceptable, and that I simply don't know anything about running a business, let me say that... I have run my own business. I have stood behind my products. I have been in several positions to deliver direct customer service.



Most customers simply don't want to be made to feel like you don't care; that you don't see them as an individual and a special case, and that you aren't willing to work with them. I was made to feel all those things.



It's not right. My expectations are NOT wrong.



Case-in-point: My sons used car with 3 mo warranty, that started this thread. Without even asking or saying anything the service dept cut the total repair bill on the part that wasn't covered under warranty by 1/2. They didn't have to do that, but they did. I am a "satisfied" customer because of it.



TJR
 
I have NEVER had an issue with a dealer performing service in the past 30 yrs.

all has always been perfect.



I've been there, Fantasy Ford in the Magic Kingdom.:lol:
 
You know it's funny this topic is going on...just today I had a customer in the shop with a turn signal problem on a Malibu. The customer insisted up and down that the turn signal switch was the problem and was very adamant about not paying for 1/2 hour labor to have it looked at. Normally I wouldn't have touched it but I was feeling confrontational. I replaced the switch for the customer and he was a bit peeved when it didn't fix his problem and swore up and down that I must have done something...just to shut him up I put in a new flasher adn wouldn't you know the problem was solved...did I charge him for the flasher...dam right I did. Had he paid the 1/2 hour of labor I would have fixed it and not charged him one cent more, instead he ended up paying about $200 more than he had to.
 
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Noble, is not fantasyland, have never taken a car in for Non-warranty work.

The key is, read and copy any TSBs that may pertain to the problem.

Frequent sites and ask Questions about said problem as we do here.

Than go to the dealer with some knowledge.

case in point, my wife used to have a 540IT touring coupe (kid hauler wagon)

Her rear lgts became intermitant and she kept blowing bulbs, pulled the inside panels off and the wires were frayed were the rear lid hinges.

Took it to beemer, did not say a word other than the rear lgts are doing as above.

Service writer says they need to run diags to find the problem sir, 175 BMW $s.

I said B.S, come with me, opened the rear hatch, pointed to the bare wires and said, I think those wires are shorting, causing the problem, he red faced just said, come back in two hrs and all will be made right.

You need to be proactive, do your reaserch.
 
The customer insisted up and down that the turn signal switch was the problem and was very adamant about not paying for 1/2 hour labor to have it looked at.



My rule...



I take a vehicle in and say "DPFE sensor needs replaced". They say, we will HAVE to charge a diagnostic fee. I say, no problem. You find something different, I will pay the fee. I am not paying you to tell me something I already know.





Tom
 
1tech,



Note that your last story of what happened today is "apples to oranges", because in my case, I wasn't adamant, and I didn't say up front that I would not pay for diags, but I did say EXACTLY what the problem was, and come to find out that is exactly what the problem was. It was pretty clear. Anyone who has ever felt the mechanics of a multi-function switch go bad needn't diagnose anything. The switch in question is supposed to pull foward to toggle between high/low beams, and the toggle portion of the switch would sometime catch, sometimes not...and it got worse and worse with age.



I would have been ESTATIC if the dealer had simply taken my word for it, and given me a good deal on the price of a replacement MFS. But they wanted $80 to pull a couple of times on the switch and then say: "Yep...it's broken!" BS!



Also, I can't help but think that its the job of good customer service folk to protect the customer from themselves. Somehow your story makes it sound like you didn't do that in this case given that the customer got charged $200 more than he needed to be.



For example; if you were SO sure that you were right and he was wrong, and that your way would save money and fix the problem then why not simply but his and your money where your mouth is, attempt to fix it your way, and if it fixes the problem, then write up the lower cost repair bill and tell the customer, politely, "I told you so", and if you are wrong, then eat crow, and the time/parts and go with his fix, and if THAT doesn't fix the problem then there's "none on you", so to speak...as you did what you were asked.



I like Caymen's policy. If the customer thinks they know what is wrong, and the diagnostic simply validates that, then the diagnostic is no charge, provided the work to remedy the problem is also done by the shop.



Then again, I've always been stiffed with diag fees regardless of whether the work was done or not.



TJR
 
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Bill Barber,



To answer your question...



Because I thought it was under warranty. The 3 mo, used car warranty was supposed to cover everthing engine related...but alas, emission control systems aren't included (fine print).



When it was proven to NOT be a warranty covered item, then the cost of determining the problem was already a liability for me. The rest of the cost of fix was minimal.



As I said above, I would have been better off going to Autozone, getting the CEL code read, and tried one of their purge solenoid valves to see if the problem went away. Next time that is what I will do, and if the CEL code reading shows a warrantied part, then I will take it into the dealer.



TJR



 
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