Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
and the next major thing to come will be far worse than gas, it will be water, mark my words, we are running out of water.
Pickens Plan?
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Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
Nuke plant are one place that Unions would be a good idea, as long as they provide the best of the best.
Chernobyl wouldn't have happened in the US for many reasons. The primary reason is that the type of reactor used is not allowed to be used in the US. The second is that the safeguards that the US Nuclear Regulartory Agency has in place would not allow the systems that were taken offline to have been taken off line.
Three things about Wind and Solar power:
1) They generally generate DC ... direct current. You house runs on AC ... alternating current. While your standard incandecent lights won't care, your beer storage and cooling device (refrigerator) and large-format sports viewing device (HDTV) and personal environmental cooling and maintainence system (HVAC) all need AC to run. Your efficency drops big time converting DC to AC plus transmitting DC over long distances is costly.
2) You still need a self-generating power system as a backup. Solor.... great for about 8 hours a day. Wind.... great when the wind blows atleast 20 mph but under 60 mph. Outside of those two envelopes, they are inefficient and expensive. A coal station takes too long to come up to speed to be turned off when not needed and turned back on when demand exceeds supply. The plant would still need to be running 24/7 to fill in the gaps.
There is a massive new solor plant being built in New Mexico or Arizona by ABENGOA/ABENECS. My dad is a buyer for the project. It will run efficiently for about 8-10 hours a day during the summer, and only around 4 hours in the winter. It will generate power longer than that per day, but it's peak effiency is limited.
Then you make the assumption that 365 days a year and 366 days during a leap year, there will not be any sand storms, clouds, rain, etc.
3) Storage. There is no way to currently store the amount of power that "could" be generated. You can generate massive amounts of electricity by wind, solor, etc. but there is no way to store excess power in case of a rainy day.
Remember, energy is not "created" it is merely transformed from one type to another. It is not lost. The laws of thermodynamics governs the "generation" of electricity and in no way in the natural world can those laws be violated.
I really don't care if people or companies make money by producing energy/electricity. That is the greatness of this country. To quote the movie "Robots"
"See a Need, Fill a Need"
and I'll add "make profit".
Chernobyl wouldn't have happened in the US for many reasons. The primary reason is that the type of reactor used is not allowed to be used in the US. The second is that the safeguards that the US Nuclear Regulartory Agency has in place would not allow the systems that were taken offline to have been taken off line.
Three things about Wind and Solar power:
1) They generally generate DC ... direct current. You house runs on AC ... alternating current. While your standard incandecent lights won't care, your beer storage and cooling device (refrigerator) and large-format sports viewing device (HDTV) and personal environmental cooling and maintainence system (HVAC) all need AC to run. Your efficency drops big time converting DC to AC plus transmitting DC over long distances is costly.
2) You still need a self-generating power system as a backup. Solor.... great for about 8 hours a day. Wind.... great when the wind blows atleast 20 mph but under 60 mph. Outside of those two envelopes, they are inefficient and expensive. A coal station takes too long to come up to speed to be turned off when not needed and turned back on when demand exceeds supply. The plant would still need to be running 24/7 to fill in the gaps.
There is a massive new solor plant being built in New Mexico or Arizona by ABENGOA/ABENECS. My dad is a buyer for the project. It will run efficiently for about 8-10 hours a day during the summer, and only around 4 hours in the winter. It will generate power longer than that per day, but it's peak effiency is limited.
Then you make the assumption that 365 days a year and 366 days during a leap year, there will not be any sand storms, clouds, rain, etc.
3) Storage. There is no way to currently store the amount of power that "could" be generated. You can generate massive amounts of electricity by wind, solor, etc. but there is no way to store excess power in case of a rainy day.
Remember, energy is not "created" it is merely transformed from one type to another. It is not lost. The laws of thermodynamics governs the "generation" of electricity and in no way in the natural world can those laws be violated.
I really don't care if people or companies make money by producing energy/electricity. That is the greatness of this country. To quote the movie "Robots"
"See a Need, Fill a Need"
and I'll add "make profit".
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
store electricity
R. Shek,
1. DC current is easily converted to AC power via inverters, or you can use the DC to power an AC generator. There are also many DC, AC and LP gas powered appliances made for RV's that can be used in the home, or special models could be made to look and operate just like the existing home appliances. Most people who use Solar or Wnd power now use DC to AC converters and conventional 110 volt AC appliances and sell their excess power back to the utility for a credit.
2. You don't need a back up for solar or wind if you remain on the grid. Just sell your excess electricity back to the utility for a credit and when the sun does not shine or the wind does not blow for a few days, you simply buy electricity from the power company. Again, something that has been done for years.
3. Storage is nto a major isssue since most system use a bank of batteries to store excess electricity for night time use, and then again as stated above, you sell your excess electricity back to the electric company for a credit and buy it back when the weather conditions do no allow you to venerate your own power.
You only need storage and/or a back up generator when your jouse cannot be connected to the electrical. That would only apply to some very remore parts of some states.
...Rich
1. DC current is easily converted to AC power via inverters, or you can use the DC to power an AC generator. There are also many DC, AC and LP gas powered appliances made for RV's that can be used in the home, or special models could be made to look and operate just like the existing home appliances. Most people who use Solar or Wnd power now use DC to AC converters and conventional 110 volt AC appliances and sell their excess power back to the utility for a credit.
2. You don't need a back up for solar or wind if you remain on the grid. Just sell your excess electricity back to the utility for a credit and when the sun does not shine or the wind does not blow for a few days, you simply buy electricity from the power company. Again, something that has been done for years.
3. Storage is nto a major isssue since most system use a bank of batteries to store excess electricity for night time use, and then again as stated above, you sell your excess electricity back to the electric company for a credit and buy it back when the weather conditions do no allow you to venerate your own power.
You only need storage and/or a back up generator when your jouse cannot be connected to the electrical. That would only apply to some very remore parts of some states.
...Rich
Dreman
Well-Known Member
The reason I am concerned about the weather is wind is the driving force behind a lot of the weather patterns we have. One windmill won't affect the weather, but 100,000 windmills might pull enough power out of the winds to change things up.
TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
I think 100,000 windmills is a bit of an exagerration. And I really don't think that windmills will affect the weather. That's as unlikely as humans having any other significant impact on weather (like, say... man-made global warming). Man is far to insignificant of a creature to be able to impact nature and the weather on that large of a scale. If we could, think about all the immense, lasting changes that all of the above-ground atomic testing over three decades should've had on weather.
Dreman
Well-Known Member
I said I had a question about it. I didn't say I had the answer!
Shelby Crane
Active Member
My thoughts:
1) Solar and Wind Power are inefficient.
2) Nuclear power is a short term answer that adds to pollution.
My solution:
1) Short-Term - Invade Kuwait and take their oil.
2) Long-Term - Harness lightning and store it.
Currently I power my TV with static electricity - I have a gerbil with four tiny socks on a piece of carpet.
It does?
I wasn't aware that oil burning is cleaner than nuclear power and invading Kuwait is the right thing to do. I mean, with all the instability in the Middle East, that idea will go over well.
Tom
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
TrainTrac, if you think about it, a windmill would have the same effect on the wind as a big tree. I think we have cut down more than 100,000 trees, so these windmills would just be replacements for the trees lost. I think we would have to blast away the Rocky Mountains to have a significant impact on North America's weather.
Wind turbines have no effect on the weather and will not change the weather or wind patterns. Winds do not effect our weather, the Jet Stream does but it is way too hight to be effected by wind turbines on the ground.
In some cities like Houston, TX where tall buildings are nestled close together you can get a venturii effect where the slightest little breezes can be accellerated between the buildings to some very strong 30-50 mph winds. Some builds are now employing various types of windbreak walls to prevent these wind dunnels between buildings at ground level.
Dispite the fact that these buildings can generate high winds on the ground, they also do not have any effect on the weather.
...Rich
In some cities like Houston, TX where tall buildings are nestled close together you can get a venturii effect where the slightest little breezes can be accellerated between the buildings to some very strong 30-50 mph winds. Some builds are now employing various types of windbreak walls to prevent these wind dunnels between buildings at ground level.
Dispite the fact that these buildings can generate high winds on the ground, they also do not have any effect on the weather.
...Rich
Dreman
Well-Known Member
Just looking ahead, y'all.
In 1845, who would have thought the hundreds of thousands of buffalo that roamed the plains could ever be wiped out?
In 1910, who would have thought there would ever be enough cars on the road so that their exhaust would be considered possibly hazardous?
In 1970, carbon dioxide was considered harmless, now it's a greenhouse gas.
I admit the last one is still up in the air. But who's to say it isn't possible? Just trying to make the stretch to see if I could think of a problem that could someday affect us. Your arguments are all good, and that's what I was looking for.
What I want now is a windmill that could generate 10MW in a 20mph breeze and 200MW in a 150mph hurricane, and then store it until we needed it. Why let hurricanes terrorize us? Harness them!
In 1845, who would have thought the hundreds of thousands of buffalo that roamed the plains could ever be wiped out?
In 1910, who would have thought there would ever be enough cars on the road so that their exhaust would be considered possibly hazardous?
In 1970, carbon dioxide was considered harmless, now it's a greenhouse gas.
I admit the last one is still up in the air. But who's to say it isn't possible? Just trying to make the stretch to see if I could think of a problem that could someday affect us. Your arguments are all good, and that's what I was looking for.
What I want now is a windmill that could generate 10MW in a 20mph breeze and 200MW in a 150mph hurricane, and then store it until we needed it. Why let hurricanes terrorize us? Harness them!
Dreman - I do agree with your thinking, I remember a few years ago I was on here saying that using food stock for ethanol was going to cause food price increases and shortages, but that thought was poo-pooed and I was told that there is more than enough crop to sustain this and I was crazy. . . present day this turns out not to be so. (well, me being crazy might be true )
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Dreman
Well-Known Member
No argument here! Me too!:lol:
Me too!:lol:Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
Inverters are HIGHLY innefficient. The inverter you use in your car for powering your laptop is not the same thing that can be used for powering your refridgerator or HVAC. The basic inverter design works great for under 10A draw, or 1200W. Look at your entire house. You probably have 220V with 100A service. which is 220,000W service, or roughly 184 times as much as you can get with your car. Using an inverter gets around 70% effiency, depending on the design. I have designed two that I plan on using at work that convert single phase AC to DC then to 3-Phase. The single-phase to DC is easy and pretty efficient. However, the conversion from DC to AC has proven to be much more difficult than I had planned. The technology is not cheap.
Solar and wind conversion has severe limitations when going to 3-phase.
Actually, as a whole, you do. As an individual, solor or wind may be fine. However, you still need a backup for factories, office complexes, grocery stores, mass-transit (like Chicago's Elivated, or San Fran's BART). Short-sighted individuals always come back with this type of answer but don't look at the big picture.
Batteries store DC power. Go back to the first responce. You cannot transmit DC power over long distances (say longer than 1 mile) without extremely expensive large copper cables. Again, batteries for home use is one thing. Batteries for a factory, totally different.
Yep, and when all the households in a city flip their generators on, what have we gained from going to solor or wind when it comes to greenhouse gases? Think man, think.
Surely, you have never been to a Ford factory, a Wal-Mart Distribution Center or a Mass-Transit facility. Even the small factory I work in would require huge generator and mass quantities of fuel oil, natural gas, diesal, etc. to operate.
All these pie-in-the-sky solutions fail to take into count the fact that we still have an industrial base that depends on electricity in one way or another.
Life is not just about your household or the storefront you work in. Some businesses and factories require so much more than the average person sees. Before you spout off on ideas that you heard about on "An Inconvenient Truth", or that you hear about on CNN (which have huge power requirements of it's own) think about what it takes to make a Sport Trac or provide you with sheet for your bed or food for your table.
If you can eliminate the need for 1 power plant, is it not a step in the right direction? If we can reduce our dependance on foreign oil by 0.1%, is it not an advancement? If the windmills can lessen the demand of electricity during peak hours not an advancement.
Just because there is no difinitive proof about global warming, is it a wise decision to polute anyways? What if someone decided to dump their garbage in your front yard, would you not be upset? Why should we just think that pumping chemicals, in any form, into the environment is OK because there is no proof it does any type of damage or if the damage is so minimal nobody cares?
Get with the program. Pollution of any type, if it is avoidable, should not be done. If there is something better out there, lets do it.
We can not wait until technology is perfected before we impliment it. If that is what we did, nobody would have cell phones, computers, vehicles, or anything else. All of these everyday items were buggy, unreliable, and sometimes just didn't work. As time went on, those items got better, cheaper, and very reliable.
If there is a source of energy that can be used, why not do it? 1 windwill to create energy that we did not have before is a step in the right direction.
Tom
Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
Tom,Windmills Kill birds, you painfully have no Bird love
That is right. I forgot about it. I prefer to gag a fish than to kill a tree. LOL
Tom
Tom
Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying that they shouldn't be built, but just like ethanol, they are not the end-all-be-all that the libertards (not just liberals, these are the really idiotic liberals, like Al Gore) and environazis like Greenpeace make them out to be.
Getting off foreign oil... if it meant that I would pay $4/gallon now and less later to do so, so be it. I'll do it with my flag held high.
I'm all for nuclear power. It's safe, reliable and environmentally friendly (atleast compared to coal and oil). What's better is that once the plant is built and on the grid, the cost of generation is significantly lower than coal. That is if you can get the goberment and the courts out of the way.
However, there has not been any of the alternative fuels/power sources that can reliably power a jumbojet, so I don't see the hydrocarbon fuel need going away anytime soon.
Getting off foreign oil... if it meant that I would pay $4/gallon now and less later to do so, so be it. I'll do it with my flag held high.
I'm all for nuclear power. It's safe, reliable and environmentally friendly (atleast compared to coal and oil). What's better is that once the plant is built and on the grid, the cost of generation is significantly lower than coal. That is if you can get the goberment and the courts out of the way.
However, there has not been any of the alternative fuels/power sources that can reliably power a jumbojet, so I don't see the hydrocarbon fuel need going away anytime soon.
