Fog lights with high beam

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Mickey Luis

Mickey Luis

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I have a 2003 Ford SPORT (2 dr) that is basically identical to the Sport Trac from the front bumper to the "B" pillar. I would like to do the "Fog Light Mod" on my 2003 to have the fog lights stay on even when I have the high beams on. With Photobucket's new policy about linking photos to forum sites, many photos are now missing and leaving some valuable illustrations empty. I haven't been able to find the right info with any photos or an accurate description. I understand the legal complications about high beams on with fogs but still wish this for my personal use and not for evil. :) Thanks for any help.
 
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<---------------------- PROJECTS SECTION..... Have fun !!



Todd Z
 
It is not hard to do, and I also don't want to sound like the "Lighting Police", but connecting fog lights to be on with your Hi-Beams is probably illegal in every state in the USA....with good reason.



...Rich
 
Thanks Guys, that was too easy! I did search the Projects section but did the search under "Electrical" instead of "Lighting". Once again this forum is an wonderful source of clear information. :supercool:
 
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To RichardL and others, I believe all states will allow there to be 4 forward projecting lights to be on at the same time. Since our Sport Tracs have a dual filament bulb, when we go to high beams there is still only 2 beams of light going forward. Therefor, fogs with high beams would be legal. :) I know this is the law in TN. This is also why fog lights with low beams is legal. On my 2004 Explorer fogs with high beams would not be legal because the high beam is a separate projector and bulb and the low beam stays on when the high beams are engaged.
 
I have had my '04 wired for high beams with fogs, for 10 yrs. I think not legal in TX. I have passed inspection every year. Even though the inspector seen it.

If you worry about it. Turn the fogs off or unplplug the bulb wires, before inspection.....
 
gyates,

Allowing 4 forward projecting lights is not the same as having fog lights on with your high-beams....that's why car makers only allow the fogs to be on with the low-beam headlights.



The limit of 4 forward projecting lights is not entirely true since many vehicles are made that can have 2 headlights, 2 fog lights, and even LED accent or corner lights on at the same time.



All states ban the use of fog lights with high-beam headlights for safety reasons....it can temporarily blind on-coming drivers. Also, High-beams with fog lights defeats the purpose of the fog lights when it's foggy.



I would suggest that you get brighter headlight bulbs like SilverStar Ultras that can reach down the road much further and you can legally use your fog lights to illuminate the edges of the road in front of the vehicle.



...Rich

 
Rich, In TN it is legal, per TCA 55-9-402. The TN code clearly allows for 4 forward facing light beams. Trust me. :) The law is the area I work in daily.. Now there are some cities that have ordinances that you can't use fogs at all unless inclement weather, such as Nashville, but honestly these are not truly enforceable since the TN law trumps local ordinances. The locals mostly use it as an excuse to pull someone over..



Greg
 
The thing about our so called fog lights. They are actually driving lights IMO. There fore the clear lens and high output lamps. Yellow lens are the ones for fog...
 
Put SilverStar Ultras in my '07 and I feel they're not worth the money. No noticeable difference to me. Folks with brights on and fogs usually get to enjoy be brights in their eyes.
 
gyates,

Not disagreeing that TN allows 4 forward facing light beams, but as I said before, that does not necessarily mean that you can drive with both fog and high-beams on. You can interpret or knit-pick that TN law as you wish...I am just saying that high-beams and fog lights are a No-No in all 50 states. If you look into other TN laws on vehicle lighting in more detail, you will find a law that prohibits Fogs & High-beams on at the same time, or they may simply do as many states do, and just default to the Federal DOT laws governing vehicle lighting rather than just repeating the same restrictions.



Eddie,

I agree that yellow fog lights are superior to white fog lights because the yellow light improves visibility by giving better contrast and definition to objects in the fog.... Much like how yellow/orange lens filters improve contrast and reduce haze in photography. What makes them classified as fog lights is the shape of the beam...which is a low aimed beam that is clipped at the top to prevent glare reflecting off the fog and back into the drivers eyes.



Gary,

I think the SilverStars did not show any noticeable difference in your Gen2 Sport Trac is probably because of the improvement in the headlights in the Gen2. The Gen1 Sport Tracs had some really bad headlights and switching to SilverStars made a very noticeable improvement in down-the-road light. I noticed the same thing with my old 2013 Hyundai Tucson....OEM headlights were all but worthless. Within 2 weeks, I switched to SilverStars and it was a world of difference. The same thing applies to my friends 2012 Ford Fusion....His wife complained that the headlights were worthless even on high-beams. I bought them a set of SilverStars for Christmas and the difference was like day and night !



...Rich

 
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Rich,



This is the law in TN, from our code, TCA 55-9-402 (2) Auxiliary road lighting lamps may be used, but not more than two (2) of the lamps shall be lighted at any one (1) time in addition to the two (2) required headlights.



There is nothing in TN law that forbids use of fogs with brights. Nothing. I work for our Legislature. Trust me. Now if there is a Federal law that says you can't that is something else, but there is no State of TN specific law that prohibits them.



Our code does address high beams as far as distances they can illuminate and how far from a vehicle you can be before you have to dim your lights, but that is it in regards to high beams.



I personally do not run my fogs with brights, but at times, like when we are at our family farm which is in the middle of nowhere, it would be nice to have them on. High beams are great for distance, but when a deer runs out of the edge of the woods, which happens frequently, having fogs on to see the sides of the road would be very beneficial. I am not at the family farm enough to make the wiring change in our projects section, but if I spent more time down there I would make the wiring change. (it is only a ground wire that has to be moved)



As to car manufacturers, they have to build them based on the most stringent laws so that the vehicles can be sold and licensed in all states.. There are many cars built where you can run fog lamps with parking lamps only, but there are some states that use of parking lamps on the road while driving is illegal.. If I am not mistaken, Vermont falls into this category. Given this, why can any car run fogs with parking lamps then?? I never do this either. I don't get the point in it..



And finally, yes, Silverstar bulbs are great! I run them in all of my vehicles, including my wife's Edge. I do not use the "Silverstar Ultra" bulbs though. They are whiter light, but less usable light due to the blue coating on the bulbs.



Greg



 
:grin:Greg,

Don't take my word for it, and you should not rely on your own interpretation of TN vehicle lighting laws/regulations. Perhaps you should call the local or state police and ask them if it illegal to use fog lights with high-beams ??



The Federal DOT and NHTSA have a very long length regulation that all auto makers and states must comply with. The section on vehicle lighting is ? 571.108 and about 182 pages of very small print...so when you have a few days of nothing else to do, read it.



The problem with Vehicle Lighting laws is that they don't always just simply say: "Fog Light and High-Beams are illegal". They often use an indirect broader language of one or more laws that excludes some activity that indirectly makes some related activity illegal.



As an example....Federal laws and State laws may say: "Law-1: It is illegal to use fog lights when there is no fog, rain or snow conditions". Then they may also say: "Law-2, It is illegal to use high-beams during fog, snow or rain". and then say: "Law-3: Low-beam headlights must be used during inclement weather like fog, snow or rain".



So by simple logical deduction, we can conclude that if you cannot use fog lights when there is no fog, snow or rain, and we cannot use high-beams in fog, snow or rain,...but must use low-beam headlights in fog, snow, or rain,...they combine to mutually exclude the legal use of fog lights with high-beams.....Thus fog lights can only legally be used with low beam head lights...and only when there is fog, snow or rain. !!



You are free to do what every you want since the police often do not enforce these lighting laws unless they want to be knit-picky and need the revenue. The reality is that most police don't know the vehicle lighting laws and the fines are not worth the extra effort.



Here in TX, I wish the police would enforce the vehicle lighting laws....I have seen way too many vehicles driving in fog and rain without headlights where visibility is only a few hundred feet. TX law states that vehicles must use headlights where visibility is less than 1000 feet ! My own un-scientific survey seems to indicate that the guys driving without lights are driving pickup trucks. So I have named this phenomenon "The Pickup Truck Mentality" :bwahaha:



Finally, The original question was asked by MickeyL, who lives in CT not TN so your interpretation of TN probably does not really matter to him. :grin:



...Rich
 
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Rich,



You are probably correct about the original question on this thread. But I am not "interpreting" Tn law. I am reading it. All of it. It is what I do for a living. It is not illegal in TN.



As to other lighting law, especially in rainy weather, I, too, wish that would be enforced. Around these parts it seems that a large number of Nissan drives can't seem to find their lights in either inclement weather or even at night. Or they run those stupid LED DRL's at night with no other lights on.. My wife and I jokingly refer to them as "no lights Nissans".. Honda drivers are almost as bad.



Apparently it is not illegal in CT either. This is the Connecticut law by the way:

Sec. 14-96y. Number of head lamps. Number in combination with other lamps. (a) At all times specified in subsection (a) of section 14-96a, at least two lighted lamps shall be displayed, one on each side at the front of every motor vehicle other than a motorcycle, except when such vehicle is parked subject to the regulations governing lights on parked vehicles.



(b) Whenever a motor vehicle equipped with head lamps as herein required is also equipped with any auxiliary lamps or a spot lamp or any other lamp on the front thereof projecting a beam of intensity greater than three hundred candlepower, not more than a total of four of any such lamps on the front of a vehicle shall be lighted at any one time when upon a highway.



(c) Failure to have lamps as required by this section shall be an infraction.



And this is the section 14-96a that is referred to:

Sec. 14-96a. Lighted lamps and illuminating devices required, when. (a) Every vehicle upon a highway within this state shall display such lighted lamps and illuminating devices as may be required under the provisions of sections 14-96a to 14-96aa, inclusive, (1) at any time from a half-hour after sunset to a half-hour before sunrise, (2) at any time when, due to insufficient light or unfavorable atmospheric conditions, persons and vehicles on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of five hundred feet ahead, and (3) at any time during periods of precipitation, including, but not limited to, periods of snow, rain or fog.



(b) Whenever in said sections any requirement is declared as to distance from which certain lamps and devices shall render objects visible or within which such lamps or devices shall be visible, such requirement shall apply during the times stated in subsection (a) of this section in respect to a vehicle without load when upon a straight, level, unlighted highway under normal atmospheric conditions unless a different time or condition is expressly stated.



(c) Whenever in said sections any requirement is declared as to the mounted height of lamps or devices, such requirement shall mean the height measured from the center of such lamps or devices to the level ground upon which the vehicle stands when such vehicle is without a load.



(d) Failure to provide lighted lamps and illuminating devices at such time as required by this section shall be an infraction.



Just trying to help a fellow 'Trac person out.. :grin:



The Federal law on this generally deals with standards for light reflectors, candle power, etc.. If the USA were to ever require DRL's, the Fed standards would force manufacturers to include them on all vehicles as an example.
 
Greg,

Do what you want...you seem to be a legal expert who can interpret the law to fit your personal situation. You have not read the 182 page Federal DOT, NHTSA reg on vehicle lighting or you would not say it only deals in general about light reflectors...So I'm sure I cannot convince you otherwise. Perhaps someday you will have better luck convincing a judge that you are a legal expert.....me, not so much. Good luck with that. :grin:



....Rich
 
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Rich.



I am uncertain why you keep attacking me personally on this forum. I am not interpreting TN law. I am reading it. It is clear. So is Connecticut's. Four beams of light means four beams of light. This is not common core math. I did not quote it but in Florida it is clearly illegal to use aux lights with brights. Each state is different on this. In California it is also illegal.



If you are so certain that federal guidelines clearly answer this question you need to quote it.



As to my understanding of TN law, I have worked in the legal field for 30 years. I am not a 20 year old kid working at Walmart giving an opinion. This type of work is what I do. I would give you examples of what my work has done to protect the State of TN itself, but I guess you would assume I am "interpreting" my work..



As far as appearing in court before a Judge, been there. Not an issue. I testified against a crooked politician a few years back. He was found guilty. The evidence I testified was key evidence in his conviction. Not an interpretation, but fact..



So, I have quoted or referenced law from 4 states. Provide your evidence or don't answer a legal type of question on an open forum. I know your opinion is you don't like fogs with brights, but opinion is useless without fact. And the creator of this thread wants facts..



Greg
 
Greg,

I did not attack you personally or otherwise. I simply said that you must be a legal expert and I don't have the time or the desire to research every law in every state. You are free to do what you like. I was only pointing out that if you were to go to court over this issue, I believe that you would have a hard time convincing the judge simply based on your interpretation of the law, and your claim that you only had 4 forward directed lights... So in your expert legal opinion, it was legal to have your high-beams and fog lights on at the same time. I said...good luck with that !



You never said what your legal profession is...? But, I'm convinced that you are not a lawyer or a police officer simply by the responses you gave here. Your advise is well taken about NOT giving legal advice on this forum, but then you do the same thing and give BAD legal advice while claiming to be some legal expert? Thats what sent up the red flags and what tipped me off that you are not any kind of a legal expert....nor do you have much legal experience.



I don't claim to be a legal expert and never said I was, however, however, if anyone followed my advice (Not to use Fog light with High Beams) they will not run afoul of the law regardless of what state they lived in.



On the contrary, your advise claims that they can use fogs and high-beams because you read all the laws and your expert legal interpretation and opinion makes it legal.... In response, let me ask you this: If they followed your expert legal advice and they were ticketed...are you going to pay their ticket? Or, are you going to appear in court with them as their legal representative? You don't have to answer that, because we all know the answer is: Hell NO!



I am convinced that you are not a legal expert in any sense of the word or you would know better than to be giving BAD legal advice in this forum that implies that you know all about laws...That is BAD legal advice and something that only a Jailhouse lawyer would do.



My advice has always been to NOT do something that in my layman's opinion is illegal or at best, questionable.... My advise is nothing more than someone telling a friend NOT to do something that might be illegal. That's good common sense advice, not Legal Advice !



So I am done with your legal expertise and will no longer reply to this thread. You are free to give out your BAD legal advice....I just hope that anybody reading this thread knows better than to follow your ill advised legal advice.



....Rich

 
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Wisconsin law states max of 4 beams, too. There is a bit of a problem when it comes to LED light bars because they're not addressed in any statutes.... yet. The only thing that's related to LED light bars is that none may be used if mounted above the lower edge of the windshield while operating on a public road. And the cops really enforce that. In fact, the law states that any lights mounted above the bottom edge of the windshield must be covered while operating on a public road. That became a problem when Jeep put OEM lights above the windshield. OEM or not... they still need to be covered.
 
Rich,



Funny how you are not attacking me personally, then spent your entire response attacking me. Yes, I have extensive legal experience. 30 years worth. Trust me. What is your background? And why can't you take the time to show us the so-called federal guidelines on this issue. Because they do not exist.



This is from SEMA. https://www.sema.org/sema-news/2015/08/us-government-regulation-of-specialty-auto-parts



If one scrolls down to the section on "State and Local" jurisdiction, you will see it is clear that there are no federal guidelines on the use of fog lights. There are guidelines on candle power, heigth for lamps above the road, distance they can shine, and color temperature, but the use of fog lights is a State and Local government decision. I already stated this info once. SEMA tells its members that they need to know state and local laws on lighting before making decisions. State and local laws, not federal...



If anyone gets stopped in TN feel free to message me and I will provide you the relevant info you need. I will not only get you the relevant statute but I will also get you the history of the act. The work I do is used in courts in TN regularly. As evidence.



No I am not a licensed attorney, but legal research is what I do for a paid living. Daily. I have tried to be generic in my answers since this is a public forum and not a legal consultation. But the TN statute I quoted earlier is accurate as to TN Law. 4 beams of forward light is allowed provided it does not shine more than 500 feet down the road. And you must dim your high beams if within 250 feet of a passing vehicle, or 250 feet behind a vehicle.



MickeyL, enjoy your 'Trac lighting. :grin:



Greg
 

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