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If a person is willing to screw someone else, they may be willing to screw you.



I would stay away from a business that has employees using tactics of deception, whether with their customers or with each other or their owners. If the system is wrong, then work to change the system or else get out.



Sorry, but if you continue to work for an evil company, than you are part of the evil even if you don't do it. You are still part of the company.



Just like the train scheduler in Nazi Germany didn't burn any Jews- all he did was schedule shipments of product (Jews) on the train to the camps. He is still part of the evil if he knowingly participates. If he doesn't quit as soon as he figures out what is going on, then he he shares responsibility for the evil being done.



Corporate employees who do things outside the accepted manner, even with their boss's approval, are still wrong and they share the responsibility for evildoing.



For a good read, try this book:
 
Caymen,



I guess I misunderstood. You said in your last post that "you don't want to do business with that company."



So I guess you were trying to say that you were offered that 1/3 off, under the table deal, but didn't bite.



If so, that's not what I understood you to mean when you said:
Took it to a body shop and for 1/3 off I pay cash and nobody says a word.
Click to expand...



That made it sound like a done deal.



Sorry if I misunderstood.



TJR
 
TJR,



Honestly your going to tell me that every landscaper you used, every contractor you ever hired showed you certified payroll for every employee ??? you never paid a bill cash to save on the tax ?? OR the owner gave you the BS 8% discount and made it look like you were still paying tax ???



I bet you paid some one in your life that was paying their employees cash off the books...



DO you buy ANY thing on the internet from out of state and NOT pay tax on it ???



Never say never......



As for my situation over 10 years ago..... your getting paid min wage and busting 10 hour days, no ac no heat working on high end and POS cars dealing with people that think your trash or underskilled..... and the company wants you to be deciptive.... then gives you a bonus if you do...



Sorry, not me... thats why we made the money the way we did and the customers that asked for the down low deals, got down low work....



Todd Z
 
Todd Z,



I never said that I've never done many of those things. I barter. I've paid cash for things and what happens beyond that, I'm not sure. I've purchased things over the internet and not paid sales tax. Those things I, and most people, know "can be" wrong, but we tend to do them and not apologize for them.



But, as for the situation you described that's a whole different thing, IMHO.



What you seemed to describe included:



- deceptive business practices (selling used parts as new),



- employee theft (pocketing payments made in cash, while being paid hourly to do so)



- employee malfeasance (manipulating inventory)



- participating in tax evasion



I've probably been party to that last item a time or two. I guess you've got me there.



But I certainly wouldn't run my business or a business that someone else is paying me to run for them the way you describe above.



I'm sorry you felt the working conditions, the pay, and the treatment by customers in a job that you chose to work at sucked the way it did, and that the company you chose to work for sanctioned (or at least looked the other way at) much of this.



Now I remember why I left downstate NY and never looked back! Where I live now people don't run businesses in that manner (for the most part).



TJR
 
Well, thus why I don't run my businesses that way.........



I guess you hate NY and everything it stands for.....



But look around, I bet most of the businesses by you don't report all income and the employees help them selves to stuff...



unfortunately that is human nature..... as you claim not yours, But none the less it is Human nature.



Todd Z



 
Todd,



Nope, I don't hate NY.



Furthermore, having been born, raised, and lived there for 33 years I can't say I actually know what New York "stands for". There are states that claim to stand for things (live free or die; etc), but New York has no such proclamation of which I am aware.



I do know that NY is a huge dichotomy, what with the very different cultures and attitudes between "upstate" and "downstate." I was born and raised in central NY (upstate), but I moved for a job once out of college to Westchester County (downstate). I don't miss the cut-throat nature of downstate NY at all...make a buck, make a buck, even if it means stepping over (or on) people.



It might also surprise you that it's not that way everywhere. I'm impressed by the actual civility and morality that is displayed by most people in much of this great country of ours. The metro-suburban sections of the northeast are pretty much dog-eat-dog. It's not like that everywhere. It doesnt have to be like that there, either, IMHO.



Furthermore, I don't subscribe to the notion that it is basic human nature to lie, cheat, or steal. I simply do not. I suspect I am in the minority on that belief though.



Its good to talk about morality without getting emotional. I appreciate that.



TJR
 
For the record, of the 4 shops I got estimates from, every place had a different way to fix it.



Seriously, 4 different ways to fix a bumped bumper. Remove bumper, replace bent bracket, replace bumper. Pretty simple?



Nope!



Some shops want to put it on the frame machine. Others want to ONLY use new parts. The vehicle is 9 years old and has 187,000 miles on it for crying out loud. New parts ONLY. Yea right! Another shop wanted to blend the bumper colors. Umm, this is a plastic bumper cover that is not painted. How can you charge me to blend paint on something you will not paint?



My favorite question is "What insurance company is this through?" I usually ask, "Why does it matter?" They start to stumble their words.



It shouldn't matter if my insurance company is paying for it or if I am paying for it out of my pocket. Prices should be the same.



Am I wrong for thinking this way?



Of all the shops, one told me the truth. It went like this...



"Look man, I can try to find a bumper for you, but new price is $800.00 and the yards charge half that."



I say, "I can find a bumper at pull-a-part for about $60.00"



He says, "You are kidding me! Get a bumper and the brackets. I will install them for $80.00 cash"



I said "Sounds great. Any hurry to get this done?"



He says, "Nope, whenever. I own the place and I can do it one evening. Shouldn't take more than an hour to do. It will look just fine, just give me a call. Here is my card."



I havent had it done yet since I am waiting for a 1999 to 2001 Explorer to show up. The vehicle is not unsafe. It just looks sad because of the bumper. if it were summer time, I would pull it apart myself and fix it for about 20 bucks.





Tom
 
Right and wrong are pretty black and white, but how right and how wrong are the ultimate shades of gray.



I called a local service company a few years ago for a plumber. Everything in my house had stopped draining, so it was a nasty situation and to boot- it was over a holiday weekend.



The guy came out, took a look and determined it was a simple clog in the main pipe going from the house to the septic tank. He dug a hole about a foot deep, used a recip saw to cut off the top of the pipe and snaked out a clog and put a clamped patch over the pipe- all in about 30 minutes, tops.



Afterward, he approached me with this offer: If he put the paperwork through the company, it was going to cost me over $400 since it was a holiday, it was on the weekend and he wasn't allowed to charge for less than an hour's labor. However, if I just wanted to pay him $75 cash he could write it up as the clog having cleared on its own and everything checking out fine by the time he arrived. He said that's the cut he would have received after the company took out its overhead anyway and he felt bad charging me so much for something that was so simple. He even offered to come back and install a clean-out on the line later at cost to replace the patch. I took the "deal," and have since used this guy (who now has his own company with a friend) again and have recommended him to family and friends as well. All have been happy with his work and the fairness with which he does business.



So, who's right and who's wrong here? The company that was going to charge me over $400 for a $5 part and 20 minutes worth of time? The plumber for "stealing" from his company to offer me what he thought was a fairer deal? Me, for taking an "under the table" offer that circumvented taxes and cut into the company's profits?



I guess we all were, but I'm glad he gave me the chance to even out the "wrongs" in my favor a bit instead of just getting bent over by a greedy corporation.

 
Now I remember why I left downstate NY and never looked back! Where I live now people don't run businesses in that manner (for the most part).
Click to expand...



TJR, you are being niave. I would say many small, privately owned businesses will operate in a similar manner and so will employees of larger corporations. I have never lived anywhere that you couldn't approach someone for a "better" deal. Cash is King...
 
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Piro,



You asked who was right, who was wrong.



The guy that gave you the deal was wrong. You were wrong for taking it. That's not gray...that's black and white. You and he rationalize the behavior by villifying the company and saying they would have charged too much, etc. That's a rationalization. We, as humans, rationalize our bad behavior all the time...it's an apology of sorts, and a "none on me" as well.



You got a deal. If you can look at yourself in the mirror, and you feel you can trust the guy that gave it to you as he now has his own company that's all that needs to be said.



The big difference between, say, you and I, and Tony Soprano types (for example), is that those that lie and steal all the time feel no need to rationalize their behavior. They just do it, and don't worry about it.



The fact that we rationalize the behavior is proof positive that we KNOW, deep down inside we KNOW we are doing wrong. We rationalize to make it "less our fault."



I'm no angel. I have done wrong just like everyone else. But when I do wrong, I recognize that I alone had a "moment of choice", and at that time I decided if I could "live with" what I was about to do. That's where, for me, the rationalization starts and ends.





Les,



I didn't say that many small businesses will work for cash and run business "off the books." I recognize this happens, and even happens around me, but I will say, I don't see it as much around here. Maybe it's just not as openly discussed.



I was moreso talking about the abuse by employees and their theft of time, supplies, and money from their employers. I hope that isn't widespread.



TJR
 
Caymen, your story reminds me of the cracked windshield on my Daytona when I was in college. It wouldn't pass inspection and I was a poor college student taking 18 hours and working 3 part time jobs. Went to the glass place and begged for a good deal since I was certain I had $500 deduct on my comprehensive coverage and would have to pay for all of it out of pocket. They quoted $175 for new windshield and installation. Not too bad- so I made an appointment for next morning. Checked insurance policy that night- discovered I actually had $100 deductible- good news. Told glass man about the $100 deduct when I took the car in- at least it would save me $75. No problem- he'd bill insurance co for the $75. Picked car up that evening and had to sign invoice. Noticed charges totaled over $800. Asked about several installation, sealing, kits, etc. and extra labor and was told don't worry about it- insurance company will take care of it. I asked why it went from $175 to $800 and they said that the '85 Daytona had expensive sealing system, etc. Ok- paid $100 and took car. Got home, called insurance co (USAA) and told them about it. Insurance claims guy said no problem- shop was preferred repair center. Said they all charge more for insurance claims. I said this is BS- that's why my insurance premiums go up. Called back, asked for supervisor, supervisor said no big deal, forgetaboutit. Sent letter and copies of orig estimate for $175 and final insurance bill for $800, got form letter back said thanks for being a good customer.





I don't know why this world is so f-ed up, but I figure we at least got to try to be honest. As for people wanting bottom dollar prices, off-record work, I would just send them down the road. We don't do business like that. You get what you pay for, and we are a reputable above-board company.
 
Small businesses that barter/trade services are different. Proprietors can do this OK. Working for corporation- sorry but shareholders are owners and you better not screw the owners. You cannot get shareholders permission for off-book deals, so don't do it.



Substandard business can ruin corporation's reputation. Used filter blows or lets crap in engine siezing it up, corporation will be blamed on evening news, not the guy who gave them a good deal off the books. That is stealing from the corporation.
 
Gavin said:
Used filter blows or lets crap in engine siezing it up, corporation will be blamed on evening news, not the guy who gave them a good deal off the books. That is stealing from the corporation.
Click to expand...



Gavin gets it.



Also, what happens if that used filter blows, leaving the driver stranded on the way to an emergency room visit or in a bad neighborhood late at night? If someone were to be injured or killed in part because of the negligence and deception of another that could be very serious (legally...or even just for one's conscience).



People count on their cars for their livlihood and their lives.



I would like to think that the dentist that barters with a parent to put braces on some kids teeth doesn't use cheaper lead-based solder just because they were approached for a mutually beneficial "deal." (btw, I see requests and offers for just such barter on Craigslist all the time).



I'm not sure why the auto service center would skimp on parts and potentially harm the driver in the process when in the same situation.



Either you respect and treat all your customers that you choose to serve the same, or you don't. If there are certain customers you don't want to deal with because they are rude, or they are asking you to do illegal things, well, then you choose not to have them as customers (there's the door, buddy).



TJR
 
Gavin gets it.
Click to expand...



"Getting it", is not reality. Are we discussing reality, or morals & ethics? Gavin is commenting regarding the ethics of business, not the reality of how some small businesses operate.
 
Now a days the body shops here get $90-120 and hour from the paying customer.



The insurance company's pay a MAX of $60 bucks and hour labor to them during claims...



How is that right......



That causes the shops do play all sorts of games.....



Thats the difference between working out in the field, being there and those that sit behind a desk every day.. I argue every day with contractors trying to cut corners, do it cheaper, or using inferior products, or what was not specified...



They don't care about the outcome, they car how fat their pockets are....

EVERY contractor is that way when they are LOW bidder to win a job......

IS that right... we FORCE them to be LOW bidder to get a job.... SO are we FORCING them to cut corners to eat and live ??? Some only make Penny's when all is said and done... OR they don't get the job....



Just ask any accountant.... Everyone wants the LARGEST tax return they can get, by tweaking the system..



I get $0.00 back every year !!! WHY ???? Because my accountant and i have figured the EXACT amount to deduct so I get more in my check and the government gets no interest on my money for ayer holding on to it for me...



IS that wrong ?? is that screwing the government ???



Look around.....



Todd Z
 
Les,



Yes, some businesses operate that way. None HAVE to. Where I live now those that DON'T, those that safeguard their reputation and DO THE RIGHT THING prosper. The dirtbags fail.







Todd,



Low bid contracts aren't wrong, but any purchase of services that is based solely on lowest price is ripe for abuses by the contractor as you say. That's part of the reason I don't give much merit to the whole "lowest bidder" process. It doesn't make good concessions for reputation; honor; integrity; doing the job right; quality; etc...all of which should be equally considered in the bidding process, IMHO. There are low-bid contractors out there that DO care about the outcome. If NONE, which you seem to be implying, then they wouldn't stay in business long.



Still, awarding a contract to the lowest bidder, or being the lowest bidder and then doing everything you can to legally, and within the contract, cut costs is NOT something that is wrong.



Wanting to get back the largest tax return you are entitled, and wanting to avoid paying any taxes throughout the year that you don't have to aren't against the law. These aren't wrong. These are not screwing the government.



Again, I'm lucky enough to live in the part of the country where deals are made with a handshake, and the local building contractors are 3rd and 4th generation owner/operators with a NAME and a REPUTATION that means something.



TJR
 
The fact that we rationalize the behavior is proof positive that we KNOW, deep down inside we KNOW we are doing wrong.

We rationalize to make it "less our fault."



I'm no angel. I have done wrong just like everyone else.

But when I do wrong, I recognize that I alone had a "moment of choice", and at that time I decided if I could "live with" what I was about to do.

That's where, for me, the rationalization starts and ends.
Click to expand...



Well stated. I couldn't have said it better myself.
 
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I've been thinking about this, and now I am not so sure. Back to employee/employer issues: Many employers DO lie, cheat, mislead, etc from employees. They set up policies that force employees to become crooks to keep their jobs. This is not right. Employees are not right either, but so is agreeing to work for some company and then you get screwed and your kids have to eat.



Maybe the whole problem is that this world is really f-ed up these days. Maybe it will be better when all the humans kill each other off.



I don't think there are answers to many things here. Just got to wait and die and let God fix it all.
 


Gavin,



God isn't going to fix these problems created by man.



The only way I see them getting fixed is if we as humans figure out how to soften our hearts, and I guess God can help with thatm



Remember, though I agree that employers often lie and cheat and treat employees unfairly it is STILL the employee's choice to work for the employer.



I've never lowered myself by staying with an employer that treated me with disrespect, and I certainly would never return disrespect with the same, or with worse, illegal/immoral behavior.



My dad gave me a plaque for my 16th birthday. It had our family name at the top, and below it said:





"This name is the most important thing I have given you. When I gave it to you it was untarnished. Please keep it that way and one day give it to your son with these same instructions."



TJR
 

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