Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
Funny thing Eddie, we were singing the same coming into Oakland airport on a commercial flight (1968) getting spit on by the protestors:angry:
1234, what are we fighting for?
- Thread starter Bill Barber
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EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
Bill, I guess I lucked out. We flew out of and into, Travis AFB. My 2yrs over there were '70 to '72. The grumbling I ran into. Was after I came home and some people I would meet, would try to emotionaly terrorize me, for going.:angry: I enlisted but it wasnt my choice to go to 'Nam. I did choose the second tour. Yes I was in some combat but wasnt my primary. I stayed for the money, top secret assignment and hoped for an early out. The early out didnt happen. You follow orders or go to jail.
I never got spit on. I know some that did. It sadins me that happened to you.
I never got spit on. I know some that did. It sadins me that happened to you.
Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
Is all water under the bridge Eddie,Just hate seeing our youth Killed in undeclared wars.
Hell, if we had an actual declaration of war, I would sign up to fight for my country again.
In 66 I had no choice.
Hell, if we had an actual declaration of war, I would sign up to fight for my country again.
In 66 I had no choice.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
And Hillary is over there saying that the US is on the same side as the Afghanistans. We are until we help them win and then they will be trying to kill us next.
Best to just make the Mid-East a sheet of glass. Better yet- use the neutron bomb and get rid of all the life but do not hurt the infrastructure. Then we can annex it as the 51st state (call it Oilopia?) and keep pumping the oil for the US.
No one in Congress, Pentagon, or WhiteHouse wants to end these wars. There is too much money to be made by helping out the war suppliers.
Best to just make the Mid-East a sheet of glass. Better yet- use the neutron bomb and get rid of all the life but do not hurt the infrastructure. Then we can annex it as the 51st state (call it Oilopia?) and keep pumping the oil for the US.
No one in Congress, Pentagon, or WhiteHouse wants to end these wars. There is too much money to be made by helping out the war suppliers.
Watch the movie "Why we fight". Very interesting...
Tom
Shaun Tucker
Well-Known Member
Bill and Eddie,
I have a lot of respect for the two of you having fought in one of America's most difficult conflicts to date. I studied the Vietnam War extensively in university (and personal time afterwards), as it was an intense area of interest for me. I was intrigued to learn how the most powerful country in the world could be defeated by a much less conventional army.
There are numerous parallels between the conflict in Vietnam and the conflict in Afghanistan..TONS actually. However, as you know there are also numerous fundamental differences.
Its been bugging me lately how the media has dubbed the conflict in Afghanistan as "the next Vietnam." I can't help but feel like it massively over-simplifies the situation. I wouldn't mind so much if they simply said "the conflict in Afghanistan has become a lot like the situation during the Vietnam War because of ___, ___, and ___."
Anyway I digress from the point of the post. We've lost a lot of (Canadian) boys over there, but quite honestly, it seems like since the US' focus has returned to Afghanistan a lot of American lives have been lost. The amount and the sophistication of roadside bombs have increased steadily throughout the conflict, as have the tactics used by the Taliban.
When the US first arrived in Afghanistan the Taliban was a weak, rag-tag force that wouldn't have lasted much longer if the focus did not switch to Iraq. In the years during the Iraq war, the Taliban regrouped, reorganized, and reequipped themselves across the border in India. Of course we can't do antyhing about it because the damn Indians will have you believe they are ignorant to the fact that they are harbouring terrorists. I don't believe that for a second. I think they are just SCARED to assert government authority and rid themselves of the religious extremists. Actually I'm not really sure what India's problem is. All I know is that they hold the key to victory in Afghanistan, yet are completely inept and unable to do anything to truly help.
I have a lot of respect for the two of you having fought in one of America's most difficult conflicts to date. I studied the Vietnam War extensively in university (and personal time afterwards), as it was an intense area of interest for me. I was intrigued to learn how the most powerful country in the world could be defeated by a much less conventional army.
There are numerous parallels between the conflict in Vietnam and the conflict in Afghanistan..TONS actually. However, as you know there are also numerous fundamental differences.
Its been bugging me lately how the media has dubbed the conflict in Afghanistan as "the next Vietnam." I can't help but feel like it massively over-simplifies the situation. I wouldn't mind so much if they simply said "the conflict in Afghanistan has become a lot like the situation during the Vietnam War because of ___, ___, and ___."
Anyway I digress from the point of the post. We've lost a lot of (Canadian) boys over there, but quite honestly, it seems like since the US' focus has returned to Afghanistan a lot of American lives have been lost. The amount and the sophistication of roadside bombs have increased steadily throughout the conflict, as have the tactics used by the Taliban.
When the US first arrived in Afghanistan the Taliban was a weak, rag-tag force that wouldn't have lasted much longer if the focus did not switch to Iraq. In the years during the Iraq war, the Taliban regrouped, reorganized, and reequipped themselves across the border in India. Of course we can't do antyhing about it because the damn Indians will have you believe they are ignorant to the fact that they are harbouring terrorists. I don't believe that for a second. I think they are just SCARED to assert government authority and rid themselves of the religious extremists. Actually I'm not really sure what India's problem is. All I know is that they hold the key to victory in Afghanistan, yet are completely inept and unable to do anything to truly help.
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
Pakistan is helping them out too, since it's rather difficult to make it to India from Afghanistan without going through it. Pakistan is a muslem nation and india has a growing contingent of muslems, so it is not surprising that they find as much support (and their authorities look the other way) as they do.
The much less conventional army was the American People, as mislead by the Press. There was no way that the vietnamese could have actually stopped us in pitched battles. Even Hollywood was forced to concede this in We Were Soldiers. Just another reason why the press should be OUT of Iraq and Afghanistan, as they're misleading the People again. If the press reported casualties for D-Day with as much emotion and spite as they do for the Middle East conflicts, we would have jumped out of WW2
The American People are, for worse at the moment, a powerful force. They routed Britain 200 years ago, when it was the supreme world power, instead of the socialist shell that it is today.
(And because we beat them so, when Canada wanted independence, all ya'll had to do was ask )
The much less conventional army was the American People, as mislead by the Press. There was no way that the vietnamese could have actually stopped us in pitched battles. Even Hollywood was forced to concede this in We Were Soldiers. Just another reason why the press should be OUT of Iraq and Afghanistan, as they're misleading the People again. If the press reported casualties for D-Day with as much emotion and spite as they do for the Middle East conflicts, we would have jumped out of WW2
The American People are, for worse at the moment, a powerful force. They routed Britain 200 years ago, when it was the supreme world power, instead of the socialist shell that it is today.
(And because we beat them so, when Canada wanted independence, all ya'll had to do was ask
)Les
Well-Known Member
I don't believe this is comparing the actual conflicts or the countries involved, but our government's intentions on troop levels and willingness to either fund the was as requested by our generals, or get out.
Shaun Tucker
Well-Known Member
o my gosh i made a brutal error. I really meant Pakistan. Im embarrassed.
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
We are in Afghanistan for two reasons;
1. It is (mostly) something different than what Booosh did, which by definition is wrong.
2. The all-Democrat administration and Congress don't want to look weak on defense so they have to be out there fighting someone.
JMHO.
1. It is (mostly) something different than what Booosh did, which by definition is wrong.
2. The all-Democrat administration and Congress don't want to look weak on defense so they have to be out there fighting someone.
JMHO.
As a Vietnam veteran, I can easily see the same errors being make in Iraq and Afghanistan that were made in Vietnam.
Our military is great at winning wars, but they are not trained for limited warfare, peacekeeping or general security missions when there are no clear rules of engagement. When they are put in that position they become targets.
In the first Gulf war Gen Swartzkoff said he knew he won the war before the first shot was fired when Saddam had his men dig in and take up a defensive posture. They were in fixed positions and they became easy targets.
Now we are setting up fixed positions that we try to defend and have only made ourselves targets.
Secondly, It is not longer a war, but a political issue. The battles are being waged by the politicians and not the Generals. If Gen McCrystal (sp?) says he needs 40K troops in Afghanistan, the President should send them, or get all of the troops out. He and most of our politicians are not anywhere near as educated in military tactics, so why are they calling all the shots. And why are we are trying tp prop up corrupt governments who could care less about us.
The communists won the war in Vietnam, and so what was so bad about that? The country is at peace, the people seem to be happy and life goes on. In countries where there is an overwhelming peasant population, they are not interested in freedom, or the politics. They are content to scratch out a living with whatever they have. They dont care if their government is coorupt, or who is in power as long as they dont feel threatened. Many will changes sides for a few coins, or a bag of rice.
The United Nations is worthless in these situations since they have not power or enforcment strength accept the US Military so we always end up getting into these situations where we are being critized by everyone because they did not have the balls to draw the line in the sand or even participate in the enforcement process.
If they are not willing to fight for their own freedom, then they do not deserve freedom, and we should not force it upon them.
Rich
Our military is great at winning wars, but they are not trained for limited warfare, peacekeeping or general security missions when there are no clear rules of engagement. When they are put in that position they become targets.
In the first Gulf war Gen Swartzkoff said he knew he won the war before the first shot was fired when Saddam had his men dig in and take up a defensive posture. They were in fixed positions and they became easy targets.
Now we are setting up fixed positions that we try to defend and have only made ourselves targets.
Secondly, It is not longer a war, but a political issue. The battles are being waged by the politicians and not the Generals. If Gen McCrystal (sp?) says he needs 40K troops in Afghanistan, the President should send them, or get all of the troops out. He and most of our politicians are not anywhere near as educated in military tactics, so why are they calling all the shots. And why are we are trying tp prop up corrupt governments who could care less about us.
The communists won the war in Vietnam, and so what was so bad about that? The country is at peace, the people seem to be happy and life goes on. In countries where there is an overwhelming peasant population, they are not interested in freedom, or the politics. They are content to scratch out a living with whatever they have. They dont care if their government is coorupt, or who is in power as long as they dont feel threatened. Many will changes sides for a few coins, or a bag of rice.
The United Nations is worthless in these situations since they have not power or enforcment strength accept the US Military so we always end up getting into these situations where we are being critized by everyone because they did not have the balls to draw the line in the sand or even participate in the enforcement process.
If they are not willing to fight for their own freedom, then they do not deserve freedom, and we should not force it upon them.
Rich
Shaun Tucker
Well-Known Member
That is the moral of the story right there.
Richard L for President in 2012! :lol:
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
+1.
Is it ironic that many of these communistic 3rd world dictators said that they admired the Founding Fathers? It's definitely ironic that we can be said to be forcing freedom on them.
The UN is worthless anywhere. The History Channel's Shadow Forces showed that even in the deserts of Africa they couldn't maintain something as important as a water truck
(It then told how many millions we spend to keep the UN there)
Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
With inlistments in the tank, do we even have enough troops to send.To win.
Number I heard today is 150,000 may be needed.
Before you know it the draft will come back.
Number I heard today is 150,000 may be needed.
Before you know it the draft will come back.
TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
Actually, for the first time in more than 35 years, the U.S. military has met all of its annual recruiting goals for fiscal year 2009.
Although I'm not sure about retention stats.
I doubt that we'll ever see a return of the draft. As long as we meet recruiting goals, there's no need for it. Also, it would be political suicide for the idiots in DC.
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Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
The physical requirements for the Army are pretty sad, no pull ups, 25 push ups, 35-50 sit ups....and the 12 minute mile can be excused and extensions granted, and I've heard of recruiters actually coaching people to be able to do it. That's desperation.
Violent felons worked out for the FFL, as long as they aren't "Too Dumb to go to Iraq" they could work out here...or just send them elsewhere lol.
Admitting high school dropouts is sad, but at least you have to have a Bachelors to do OCS....oh wait, you don't. If you have a minimum of 60 credits and could earn your 4 year degree (potentially) in one more school year, you can do Army OCS.
The statistic of 40% of recruits getting a 14,000 dollar average bonus is weird (why isn't it out of 100% of recruits?)...and when the Army is offering the highest bonuses at a max of 40,000 USD it's sad that
a) they're still having trouble getting truly desired recruits &
b) people aren't getting the full bonuses, showing further that they aren't the truly desired.
I don't see why the article is questioning the strength and resolve of a volunteer military. Personally I wouldn't trust conscripts. A volunteer wants to be there, and he wants to succeed. A conscript is likely to not care.
And in a brilliant move of bureaucratic stupidity, because we had success this year, let's castrate the budget and hope everything still works next year.
Genius.
Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
IF we need say 500K troops, if we have a need to defend So. Korea, if we put enough troops into Afghanistan,TO WIN.
I can see the draft coming back, granted lots of IFs
If the unemployment rate keeps escalating, granted, some will join up.
Wonder what the payscale is today for an infantry Grunt? In 66 I think I got 88 bux a month in the navy.
I can see the draft coming back, granted lots of IFs
If the unemployment rate keeps escalating, granted, some will join up.
Wonder what the payscale is today for an infantry Grunt? In 66 I think I got 88 bux a month in the navy.
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Physical requirements to join the military do not need to be extrodinarly tough, The military will get you in sufficient shape to do your duty. Not every position in the military requires world class atheletes.
Keep in mind that whenever the economy goes down and unemployment rises, there is a big surge in military enlistments. When people don't have any marketable skills and can't find work many will turn to the military for a steady income and 3 square meals a day.
I went into the military after High School because I wanted a change, and did not have any marketable skills. I had very high test scores and that eventually got me into computers and a highly marketable skill when I left the military...29 years later. I was physically fit, had the brains just needed some disapline, and that's what the military can provide.
I personally think that every man and perhaps every woman should be required to perform 2-3 years of military, or community service before they reach their 30th birthday. I think this will instill some displine and self esteem in everyone and make this country a much better place just knowing you made some kind of contribution.
...Rich
Keep in mind that whenever the economy goes down and unemployment rises, there is a big surge in military enlistments. When people don't have any marketable skills and can't find work many will turn to the military for a steady income and 3 square meals a day.
I went into the military after High School because I wanted a change, and did not have any marketable skills. I had very high test scores and that eventually got me into computers and a highly marketable skill when I left the military...29 years later. I was physically fit, had the brains just needed some disapline, and that's what the military can provide.
I personally think that every man and perhaps every woman should be required to perform 2-3 years of military, or community service before they reach their 30th birthday. I think this will instill some displine and self esteem in everyone and make this country a much better place just knowing you made some kind of contribution.
...Rich
TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
On the 2009 basic pay scale, an E-1 Buck Private/Seaman Recruit/Airman Recruit earns $1,294.50/month when they step off the bus at boot camp.
Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
Not bad TT, for a 18 yr old, better than working at Mickey ds, plus you get to carry guns and stuff:lol:
