Nuclear meltdowns in Japan

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that you do not posess the knowledge to determine the results in this case.



Think what you want. In the end, i know what I know and frankly, you don't matter to me.





Tom
 
Caymen said:
No, you are too critical on everything anyone says and you have been called out about it before.



For a guy that complains about others ability to formulate a post, you seem to have trouble with criticism.



Let's look at what is wrong with what you stated just above.



1. "...too critical..." - that is arguably a matter of opinion.



2. "... everything anyone says..." - clearly NOT TRUE. I am not critical, excessively or otherwise, of everything that is said here. Not EVERYTHING.



3. "... you have been called out for it before."- Yup. True. Those here that tend to make the most assertions that simply cannot be backed up and therefore cannot be proven to be true get responded to by me (and others) and they don't seem to like it one bit.



Just reread what you say before you post it, and if using an absolute make sure you can back it up. Pretty simple.



TJR
 
Caymen, when you said:
I know from experience that with the proper safety procedures, controls, and measures, leaks don't happen. How bad the leak is is the deciding factor.



Can I ask, what you mean? The severity of the leak is the deciding factor of what? Of whether or not proper procedures, controls, measures were followed and in place?



TJR
 
The Japanese of all people on this earth have the utmost respect for Nuclear energy. I'm sure they followed all safety procedures, but with the magnatude of this earthquake, i'm sure this puts their SOP's out the window...



Caymen, sounds like you are Japan bashing again with your posts.....WWII was over along time ago. Get over it.....lol it's different to bash Toyota when they was having their issues, this type of catastrophie could happen anywhere in the world, including the eastern US...



I'm sure some will say non-union labor caused this situation at these nuke plants..:bwahaha::btddhorse:



 
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Hey Caymen>>dont let the closed minded bother ya brother.



Anti-Union sorts forget, or are too ignorant to see that child labor laws were enacted because of Unions.



Unions brought us the weekend, the 8-hour day, paid vacations, holidays, health insurance, and pensions.



Unions are not just for workers on the lower rungs of the wage scale either. Unions can provide every employee with a stronger voice in the workplace, protect workers against unfair practices by employers, and facilitate workers' input into workplace decision making.



Through legislative action, unions are working to reform immigration laws, raise the minimum wage, and improve workplace safety.



Unions are some of the most democratic and diverse organizations in the United States today. They can be avenues for actually realizing the American Dream.

But, of course, in the U.S., workers' rights to organize are frequently violated.



If you can somehow discount any of this...well then you might just be as crazy as Glenn Beck.



 
" little harshed out"

huh?



"it's different to bash Toyota when they was having their issues"

it's NEVER nice to do that...:bwahaha::haveabeer:



:back2topic:

"but with the magnatude of this earthquake, i'm sure this puts their SOP's out the window..."

tom, will disagree :sad:



 
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TJR and Caymen,



It's fine if you want to continue this conversation but please edit your posts and clean up the language for the rest of the members that may be following the thread.



Thank you.
 
Wow, I don't know about radiation getting me from Japan, but I think I'm in danger from the meltdown that went on in this thread. :grin:



The point of my post was that from my experience, when it comes to following regulations, meeting specifications, and adhering to standards, the Japanese (on average and given my experience) tend to kick American's arses.



True in general, but I would think that you would have to directly compare Japanese Nuclear Engineers to their American counterparts, as to be a nuclear technician should require a person different from generalizations made from the general public.



I suppose it is good form to mention that IIRC a nuclear power plant worker did not need a college degree in America, as the position was on the top 10 list of "most lucrative jobs sans college", and that in modern Japan the only "noble" form of death is death by extreme overwork, preferably by stomach ulcer (akin to the ritual suicide of yore). They call it <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi">karoshi</a> (link to wiki article, FYI)



However, I'd still like to believe that American nuclear engineers are a grade above the sterotypical "slacksadasical" American workers.



Though with observed radiation sickness in no less than 25 people and another reactor building blowing up, as well as yet another reactor having insufficient cooling (and the jury-rigged effort of the Japanese to stop overheating), I have doubts of the abilities of the Japanese to contain such an effort, and doubts on the reported severity of the incident.



I'm still amazed that the Japanese went with uranium based plants, after all their anti-nuclear weapons protest, though IIRC Wikileaks revealed that Japan had reneiged and let nukes be stored on their soil surreptitiously.
 
Gary has yet to contact me via email. He is just making noise because he wants to be heard.





Tom
 
KL,



Thanks for the intelligent reply on the subject of the general difference in observed, exacting standards between American and Japanese. I never meant to imply, and took pains to make sure I didn't actually state, that it is factual that the Japanese nuclear program is superior in safety to the American counterpart.



I'm not sure why differences of opions and perceptions can't be discussed online without people telling one another they are wrong. Perception and personal experiences define an opinion and a personal reality. One is no more wrong or right than another...



I also hope that the average Amerian nuclear engineer is the cream of the crop. We can hope, but I can tell you with some conviction, there is a wide range in the quality of enginees out there, even those accredited with the same credentials.



TJR
 
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Got a lot of respect for the Japanese people from viewing the devastation over the weekend. Watching them calmly stand in lines at gas stations, stores, emergency water stations, etc. Over here it would be rioting, looting, and total chaos.



ps: the nuclear reactors over there were built by GE. And no mater how many safeguards are put in place, sh*t happens.
 
TomT,



Having been to Japan several times I can only say that it is so far and away a different culture than ours. If I were to have to retire internationally, I would rather settle in Japan than in almost anyplace in Europe. People's respect for one another in Japan is just so top-notch.



TJR
 
10K and counting lives lost,and yet the two same moronic site members,vie for alpha dog status,both should be banned,same old shit,differant day.:btddhorse:
 
Bill,



Good day to you, too.



The loss of life is very, very sad. I have nothing but respect for the Japanese. I'll tone it down out of respect for them.



Thanks,

TJR
 
Good articles from the WSJ in regards to Japans nuclear reactors:

Nuclear Overreactions

Modern life requires learning from disasters, not fleeing all risk.

After a once-in-300-years earthquake, the Japanese have been keeping cool amid the chaos, organizing an enormous relief and rescue operation, and generally earning the world's admiration. We wish we could say the same for the reaction in the U.S., where the troubles at Japan's nuclear reactors have produced an overreaction about the risks of modern life and technology.

Part of the problem is the lack of media proportion about the disaster itself. The quake and tsunami have killed hundreds, and probably thousands, with tens of billions of dollars in damage. The energy released by the quake off Sendei is equivalent to about 336 megatons of TNT, or 100 more megatons than last year's quake in Chile and thousands of times the yield of the nuclear explosion at Hiroshima. The scale of the tragedy is epic.

Yet the bulk of U.S. media coverage has focused on a nuclear accident whose damage has so far been limited and contained to the plant sites. In simple human terms, the natural destruction of Earth and sea have far surpassed any errors committed by man.

Given the incomplete news reports, it is impossible to say how much worse the nuclear damage will be. Unlike the Soviets at Chernobyl, the Japanese have been taking sensible precautions like evacuating people near the plants and handing out iodine pills even if they may never be needed. These precautions increase public worry, but better to take them even if they prove to be unnecessary.

We will have plenty of time to dissect events at the reactors and the safety lessons going forward. William Tucker provides some useful context nearby, and one crucial point is that the containment walls seem to have held. These walls are designed to withstand quakes and explosions, and it is good news if they have done so. The crisis seems to have been triggered by the failure of diesel generators that provided electricity to cool the reactors once they were shut down. Mr. Tucker explains that this weakness has been corrected in new nuclear plant designs.

We have no special brief for nuclear power over any other energy source. Our view is that it should compete with other sources on a market basis, without subsidies or government loan guarantees. Every energy source has risks and economic externalities, whether they are noise and bird kills (wind), huge land requirements (solar), rig explosions and tanker spills (oil), or mining accidents (coal).

But more than other energy sources, nuclear plants have had their costs increased by artificial political obstacles and delay. The U.S. hasn't built a new nuclear plant since 1979, after the Three Mile Island meltdown, even as older nuclear plants continue to provide 20% of the nation's electricity.

The Tennessee Valley Authority is a couple of years away from completing a reactor at Watts Bar after years of effort. Proposals for 20 new reactors to be built over the next 15 to 20 years are in various stages of review in the multiyear approval process at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, with two each in Georgia and South Carolina at the front of the line. But the much-ballyhooed "nuclear renaissance" is a long way off, and it will be longer after events in Japan.

Our larger point is less about nuclear power than how we react as a society to inevitable disasters, both natural and man-made. Because a plane crashes, we don't stop flying. Because an oil rig explodes in the Gulf, we don't (or at least we shouldn't) stop drilling for oil. And because the Challenger space shuttle blew up, we didn't stop shuttle flightsthough we do seem to have lost much of our national will for further manned space exploration. We should learn from the Japanese nuclear crisis, not let it feed a political panic over nuclear power in general.

***

The paradox of material and technological progress is that we seem to become more risk-averse the safer it makes us. The more comfortable we become, the less eager we are to take the risks that are the only route to future progress. The irony is that one reason Japan has survived this catastrophic event as well as it has is its great material development and wealth.

Modern civilization is in the daily business of measuring and mitigating risk, but its advance requires that we continue to take risk. It would compound Japan's tragedy if the lesson America learns is that we should pursue the illusory and counterproductive goal of eliminating all risk.



 

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